Baking - some fisrt thoughts

[Micha]

Hi,

today I tested the new baking feature. Nice to see baking at Rhino, now we have two engines with baking support. From AIR I know some additional functions like:

* bake all scene objects (to hdd)
* bake selected objects (to hdd)
* load baked texture (all/selected object) for Rhino display
* automatic ID

Also I miss that the camera options of the still image rendering is kept. Best would be to use baking without to destroy the current camera setup. I don't know how a scene with dozens of objects can be baked, if the user need to manual set the ID.

I suppose so this little functions are on the way or?

-Micha

[face_off]

In general, I would expect Baking to be used for things like game asset creation, so its not something which I would think would be a popular feature of the OctaneRender for Rhino plugin - so the workflow at the moment is quite simplistic.

* bake all scene objects (to hdd)
* bake selected objects (to hdd)

I think both of these could be addressed by allowing the assignment of Render Layer and Baking Group for multiple selected Live Update items. I'm not sure if this is possible or not, so I will need to investigate.

* load baked texture (all/selected object) for Rhino display

For this you currently you can save the baking camera render to the same filename used by your material, and then rightclick the Settings->Reload All Texturemaps. In theory this could be automated, but it would be difficult, since the plugin would need to make some assumptions about which texturemaps need to be set to the baking map and with a complex material node structure this might not be possible. Take for example the situation where you have 2 Image nodes into a mix node into the Diffuse pin of a material - which of the Image nodes would the plugin replace with the baking texturemap?

* automatic ID

Not sure what you mean by this. You set the ID yourself at the moment.

Also I miss that the camera options of the still image rendering is kept. Best would be to use baking without to destroy the current camera setup. I don't know how a scene with dozens of objects can be baked, if the user need to manual set the ID.

Yes, at the moment you loose your thin lens settings when changing from thinlens to baking and back to thinlens. So use the Export Rendertarget Settings and Import Rendertarget Settings, or add a Rhino View for you thin lens camera, and save the Rendertarget to that View, then switch to the normal Perspective View to do your baking.

Paul

[Micha]

In general, I would expect Baking to be used for things like game asset creation, so its not something which I would think would be a popular feature of the OctaneRender for Rhino plugin - so the workflow at the moment is quite simplistic.

If baking would be easy than people could use it to create good looking 3D PDF. For example the Simlab Composer supports baking for 3D PDF, but not so nice fully GI. Per Octane + the SImlab PDF plugin high end 3D PDF scenes could be created.

I created some 3D PDF per Rhino|AIR|Simlab and AIR baking in the past. Here some example:
http://www.simulacrum.de/download/3D_PDF/House3.pdf
http://www.simulacrum.de/download/3D_PD ... rmouse.pdf
http://www.simulacrum.de/download/3D_PD ... lebox2.pdf

* load baked texture (all/selected object) for Rhino display

For this you currently you can save the baking camera render to the same filename used by your material, and then rightclick the Settings->Reload All Texturemaps. In theory this could be automated, but it would be difficult, since the plugin would need to make some assumptions about which texturemaps need to be set to the baking map and with a complex material node structure this might not be possible. Take for example the situation where you have 2 Image nodes into a mix node into the Diffuse pin of a material - which of the Image nodes would the plugin replace with the baking texturemap?

Best the baked map would loaded to a simple Rhino material and the original Octane material disconnected. Maybe we get a better solution, best a solution that allow to switch between baked and original material. OK, this would need some coding effort.

* automatic ID

Not sure what you mean by this. You set the ID yourself at the moment.

That's what I mean, each object should get an own ID per automatic. AIR doe's it.

Also I miss that the camera options of the still image rendering is kept. Best would be to use baking without to destroy the current camera setup. I don't know how a scene with dozens of objects can be baked, if the user need to manual set the ID.

Yes, at the moment you loose your thin lens settings when changing from thinlens to baking and back to thinlens. So use the Export Rendertarget Settings and Import Rendertarget Settings, or add a Rhino View for you thin lens camera, and save the Rendertarget to that View, then switch to the normal Perspective View to do your baking.

Good idea. Not intuitive like done at AIR, where pressing the bake button cause that the bake camera is used and not the still camera.

[Bendbox]

In general, I would expect Baking to be used for things like game asset creation, so its not something which I would think would be a popular feature of the OctaneRender for Rhino plugin - so the workflow at the moment is quite simplistic.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Just to add my two cents here . . . I've never used baking in my life. However . . . I DO think it would be GREATLY beneficial to the Architectural Visualization and Product design fields, both of which have tons of Rhino users. Personally, I had a client as me last year if I could do a navigable scene of a new residential streetscape I had done several Arch Vis shots for using Rhino and Octane. Also, just a month ago, I had a client that I had done an Exhibit design for, ask me if I could do a 3D rendered PDF of the space, like what Micha has shown in his post.

So, I guess my point is, I think that having the ability to do baking within Rhino is attractive to two markets in which Rhino is heavily used - and the easier it is to use, the better.

Again, just my two cents,
Ryan

[face_off]

Personally, I had a client as me last year if I could do a navigable scene of a new residential streetscape I had done several Arch Vis shots for using Rhino and Octane.

Hi Ryan - just trying to understand your workflow - how does texturemap baking help in that instance? If you are rendering in Octane wouldn't you need to turn off all shadows when you render? In which case does it actually render any quicker than using direct lighting?

I created some 3D PDF per Rhino|AIR|Simlab and AIR baking in the past. Here some example:

I couldn't open any of these which any of the pdf viewer on my PC (although I don't have Adobe pdf viewer installed - have avoided it so far). But I need a 3rd party plugin installed to view these files?

That's what I mean, each object should get an own ID per automatic.

I will add this to the next release.

best a solution that allow to switch between baked and original material.

I don't think swapping to and from baked and original materials would be possible. The auto-creation of a baked material might be possible - but what is the definition would want for this material? Ie. what material type, and what pin values? Once the plugin created a bake material for each baking group, it could assign it to each Rhino object with that Baking Group Id. The plugin would need to convert all Rhino geometry object to have Live Geometry ON.

I also put through some Baking Id assignment changes in yesterday's release.

Paul

[prehabitat]

Hi Paul,

No plugin is required to view a 3D PDF in the basic acrobat READER; it has been standard (but poorly advertised & arguably difficult to create content for) functionality since about 2008.

[v-cube]

@Paul: I also initially had difficulties to view the pdf, downloading to the desktop and opening with acrobat reader solved it.

@: Micha: Really great stuff!!!
I have to admit that I totally underestimated 3d PDF, since the majority of files I saw were really crap... seems as if I might have to have another look

and by the way, I do totally agree, being able to do baking e.g. for Interiors would be a really big thing! Right now I have a lot of customers who are really impressed by the gear VR stuff (Stereoscopic cubic environments done in octane), I was already able to do 3 commercial projects, the demand for full immersive real time environments is definitely there.
A relatively easy method of getting our visualisations with baked lightmaps to the unreal engine or unity may be the key to have it in the gear VR later on.

Imagine if you could walk around freely in a e.g. high end loft by using the gear VR with the whole light solution baked into it ! -> Superawesome

my 2 cents

Andreas

[Marvez]

I think the baking feature is important and making assumptions of what its use is limiting to creative process , it can be used way beyond game assets ( HL2 player myself)
the 3 pdf examples a really good examples and application prompting me in giving it a go with octane

if anyone can point me to a tutorial or bullet point the process..

thank you

[Bendbox]

Personally, I had a client as me last year if I could do a navigable scene of a new residential streetscape I had done several Arch Vis shots for using Rhino and Octane.

Hi Ryan - just trying to understand your workflow - how does texturemap baking help in that instance? If you are rendering in Octane wouldn't you need to turn off all shadows when you render? In which case does it actually render any quicker than using direct lighting?
Paul

Hi Paul,

I'm assuming the baking function in Octane would let you do what is shown in the video link below -- correct? I thought that you could not only bake the texture maps but the GI and shadows as well -- or is this not correct?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB09T--_ZvU

If so, then having this ability would let a client that I had created a design for, navigate the scene in a fully rendered environment. Or . . . am I miss understanding what Octane's capability is? I haven't used the Baking function yet . . . so perhaps it's not as advanced as what is shown in the above video created with Blender Cycles.

Is something like the above possible to create with Rhino and Octane with new baking function? Camera animations (with no object or lighting changes) could be created very quickly as well.

Thanks,
Ryan

[prehabitat]

Just trying to solidify my understanding;

When you bake any of the render (light) info onto the geometry; is baking resolution relevant?

ie. if you compare a flat 1000 x 600 rendered image from camera with 110° field of view vs a 4k image limited to the same field of view the shading will be visibly smoother (assuming similar viewing/print scaling)...

With a 3D PDF you may have opportunities to view parts of the model more closely than intended (variable depth) so you'd expect you base the light onto everything at the highest resolution possible/practical?