Keyframing

A forum where development builds are posted for testing by the community.
Forum rules
NOTE: The software in this forum is not %100 reliable, they are development builds and are meant for testing by experienced octane users. If you are a new octane user, we recommend to use the current stable release from the 'Commercial Product News & Releases' forum.
User avatar
face
Octane Plugin Developer
Posts: 3204
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:10 pm
Location: Germany

bepeg4d wrote: Dear Face,
from my point of view the nonsense is waiting for 180" of exporting for 30" of rendering :)
The strange thing is that no one here was talking about of FBX :)
...

ciao beppe
FBX was an example. It should show, whatever you use as export format, the export time is the same because the mass of the data is the same.
You will now wait 180" and you will soon wait 180".

What Radiance mean is to export some extra scene data in an extra file.
With that it will be possible to animate specific scene data.
Its the same what the blender plugin does, without to write direct in the ocs-file.
With it, it should be possible to export instances too...

face
Win10 Pro, Driver 378.78, Softimage 2015SP2 & Octane 3.05 RC1,
64GB Ram, i7-6950X, GTX1080TI 11GB
http://vimeo.com/user2509578
User avatar
bepeg4d
Octane Guru
Posts: 10438
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:02 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

face wrote:What Radiance mean is to export some extra scene data in an extra file.
With that it will be possible to animate specific scene data.
Its the same what the blender plugin does, without to write direct in the ocs-file.
With it, it should be possible to export instances too...

face
Wonderful, this is exactly what we need :)
Don't you think that this is a better export way?
ciao beppe
User avatar
Jaberwocky
Licensed Customer
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:03 pm

face wrote:
bepeg4d wrote: Dear Face,
from my point of view the nonsense is waiting for 180" of exporting for 30" of rendering :)
The strange thing is that no one here was talking about of FBX :)
...

ciao beppe
FBX was an example. It should show, whatever you use as export format, the export time is the same because the mass of the data is the same.
You will now wait 180" and you will soon wait 180".

What Radiance mean is to export some extra scene data in an extra file.
With that it will be possible to animate specific scene data.
Its the same what the blender plugin does, without to write direct in the ocs-file.
With it, it should be possible to export instances too...

face

Not if they multithread the set-up process to take account of 4x or 6x CPU processors.Currently the process only maxes out 1 processor core.
CPU:-AMD 1055T 6 core, Motherboard:-Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 AM3+, Gigabyte GTX 460-1GB, RAM:-8GB Kingston hyper X Genesis DDR3 1600Mhz D/Ch, Hard Disk:-500GB samsung F3 , OS:-Win7 64bit
User avatar
face
Octane Plugin Developer
Posts: 3204
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:10 pm
Location: Germany

Jaberwocky wrote:
face wrote:
bepeg4d wrote: Dear Face,
from my point of view the nonsense is waiting for 180" of exporting for 30" of rendering :)
The strange thing is that no one here was talking about of FBX :)
...

ciao beppe
FBX was an example. It should show, whatever you use as export format, the export time is the same because the mass of the data is the same.
You will now wait 180" and you will soon wait 180".

What Radiance mean is to export some extra scene data in an extra file.
With that it will be possible to animate specific scene data.
Its the same what the blender plugin does, without to write direct in the ocs-file.
With it, it should be possible to export instances too...

face

Not if they multithread the set-up process to take account of 4x or 6x CPU processors.Currently the process only maxes out 1 processor core.
The export process lies not in the hand of RS. As written above, all plugins, without Softimage, uses the buildin export from the 3D-App.
I don´t know if there is one that uses multithreading.

Maybe they can use mutlithread on some things on the import.
On the other hand, which process should be multithreaded? Reading from the file will be serial, i think writing to the GPU-Ram too.
Also persists the preparation of the data. I think it will reduce the import time from 180" to around 110" with a quad core.

But the topic was export, not import...

face
Win10 Pro, Driver 378.78, Softimage 2015SP2 & Octane 3.05 RC1,
64GB Ram, i7-6950X, GTX1080TI 11GB
http://vimeo.com/user2509578
User avatar
kivig
Licensed Customer
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:42 pm
Contact:

face wrote: Nonsense...
If you have 4mio vertices, you have 12mio floats.
It doesn't matter whether format you use, 12mio floats are 12mio data to write/handle.
A cube with 60.000 triangles to save as FBX takes the same time as to save it as obj.
Both ~5sec in Softimage.

If you can write your own FBX/Obj exporter, you can save time.
But the most plugindevs use the buildin export.
An other reason is, that it takes a lot of hours to program it and i think you don´t want to pay more for a plugin as for Octane ;)

face
How can it not matter what format to use? I don't know about FBX but obj is text based format and in many cases default text/binary conversion eats much more time than saving data itself. Million of polygons is a split second for writing raw vertex data but takes many times more to convert to text before writing.
Plus if conversion is done via additional scripting language not binary library it can turn into a nightmare for computer in a couple inefficient or missing functions.

I have no experience with Softimage, but in both blender and max a few millions of polygons exporting/importing may eat about equal time with rendering itself (took ~about 30-80sec per frame for my last rendering), so preview is plain impossible right now. As for max it seems not so much polygons as object count that slows things down.
http://www.visnevskis.com
Vista64/Ubuntu, GTX470/580
User avatar
matej
Licensed Customer
Posts: 2083
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:54 pm
Location: Slovenia

Reading a binary file instead of parsing & converting text would speedup things on import, that's for sure, but how much I wouldn't know. Depending on the structure of data, mesh objects can be read in big chunks (like images), so the speedup might be reasonable enough. On the exporter side - for some programs like Blender, native exporters can be written in C/C++, which would speedup also the export process a lot. This + exporting extra data to do (some) animation stuff in Octane == win.

Obj should be ditched ASAP, because it's a limiting standard.
SW: Octane 3.05 | Linux Mint 18.1 64bit | Blender 2.78 HW: EVGA GTX 1070 | i5 2500K | 16GB RAM Drivers: 375.26
cgmo.net
User avatar
face
Octane Plugin Developer
Posts: 3204
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:10 pm
Location: Germany

kivig wrote:How can it not matter what format to use?...
An exporter uses a pointer to the structure of a mesh to read the mesh geometry in.
The structure have the positions, normals, textures, materials and the links between them.
Its also irrelevant, which format you use, the data fromt the mesh are ever the same.

Is the format text based, you must convert the data from float or int to string, that coast time. But with a trick you can save a lot of the time.
Is the format a binary one, then it is mostly packed, like fbx or lwo. Packing coast also time.
Maybe 1/3 of the export time is also spend to get the data structure from your 3D-App, at least in Softimage.
...Plus if conversion is done via additional scripting language not binary library it can turn into a nightmare for computer in a couple inefficient or missing functions...
I can´t think that Autodesk, Luxology, McNeel, Newtek, Side Effects or whoever used scripterd exporter. Blender maybe...
And that are the exporters, which the Octane-scrips/plugins uses.

You see, there is also not a big range to save time on export.
And as an info, the obj export that I have rewritten is faster as the buildin obj, fbx or lwo export from Softimage...

face
Win10 Pro, Driver 378.78, Softimage 2015SP2 & Octane 3.05 RC1,
64GB Ram, i7-6950X, GTX1080TI 11GB
http://vimeo.com/user2509578
User avatar
kivig
Licensed Customer
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:42 pm
Contact:

face wrote: Its also irrelevant, which format you use, the data fromt the mesh are ever the same.
Is the format text based, you must convert the data from float or int to string, that coast time. But with a trick you can save a lot of the time.
Is the format a binary one, then it is mostly packed, like fbx or lwo. Packing coast also time.
Maybe 1/3 of the export time is also spend to get the data structure from your 3D-App, at least in Softimage.
Hmm.. I don't really understand - you say format doesn't matter and that it may cost different export times at once. I meant that total export time is the difference.
As hard drive space is of no concern there's no need for packing or processing data at all. Ideally data order "key" is everything needs to be saved besides mesh and this could mean - as fast as hard drive bus handles. And, ability to import raw data directly into octane would mean same fast import too. Later it might be done though clipboard on some OS or other more civilized way eliminating the need for restarting Octane.. oops - back to reality :D
I can´t think that Autodesk, Luxology, McNeel, Newtek, Side Effects or whoever used scripterd exporter. Blender maybe...
And that are the exporters, which the Octane-scrips/plugins uses.
Should be true. Then why are those so slow compared to exporting binary formats, like app native ones? May it be they're just not meant to take load of more than occasional use, so no one cared enough to do the conversion using the trick you are talking about? Btw I often need to convert large amount of data to text and back. Is that trick a common knowledge?
And as an info, the obj export that I have rewritten is faster as the buildin obj, fbx or lwo export from Softimage...
face
Well.. It might be relatively easy for some people to write exporter, but to ask to do it from a commercial app (that states to support it) users would be strange :)
http://www.visnevskis.com
Vista64/Ubuntu, GTX470/580
User avatar
kivig
Licensed Customer
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:42 pm
Contact:

matej wrote:Reading a binary file instead of parsing & converting text would speedup things on import, that's for sure, but how much I wouldn't know. Depending on the structure of data, mesh objects can be read in big chunks (like images), so the speedup might be reasonable enough. On the exporter side - for some programs like Blender, native exporters can be written in C/C++, which would speedup also the export process a lot. This + exporting extra data to do (some) animation stuff in Octane == win.

Obj should be ditched ASAP, because it's a limiting standard.
Exactly what I meant :)
http://www.visnevskis.com
Vista64/Ubuntu, GTX470/580
User avatar
face
Octane Plugin Developer
Posts: 3204
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:10 pm
Location: Germany

Hmm.. I don't really understand - you say format doesn't matter and that it may cost different export times at once. I meant that total export time is the difference.
As hard drive space is of no concern there's no need for packing or processing data at all. Ideally data order "key" is everything needs to be saved besides mesh and this could mean - as fast as hard drive bus handles. And, ability to import raw data directly into octane would mean same fast import too.
Ok, have tested it with a sphere that have 1mio tris.
original obj-export uses in Softimage 50sec, 119MB
original lwo-export uses 20sec, 16.5MB
original fbx-export uses 30sec, 22.3MB
original collada-export uses 5sec, 64.7MB
Mine uses 10sec, 119MB

obj is textbased, the others are binaries.
I think collada is unpacked, the other binaries are packed.
I don´t know how deep the exporters are integrated into Softimage and which type of meshes are exported.
With type i mean instances, clones, models, particles or strands.
At last, Collada is the speed winner and can also export camera/light data.
Mine should be the feature winner and can also export baked textures.
This is only for Softimage, on an other app, it can be different.

The result is, we should use an format which can handle the most things we need.
Binary would be fine, it´s the fastest. The problem would be, who should integrate it into our 3D-App.
I think that there are only 2-3 plugins written in c++, the rest are scripts that uses the buildin exporters.
Later it might be done though clipboard on some OS or other more civilized way eliminating the need for restarting Octane.. oops - back to reality :D
Camera animation can work with a little trick like this, but I think, I will it never make public ;)
http://www.vimeo.com/22785409
Should be true. Then why are those so slow compared to exporting binary formats, like app native ones? May it be they're just not meant to take load of more than occasional use, so no one cared enough to do the conversion using the trick you are talking about? Btw I often need to convert large amount of data to text and back. Is that trick a common knowledge
I think thats the point, you can use it to convert occasional a mesh. It is infrequently used to export a 1000 frame animation.
Should be true. Then why are those so slow compared to exporting binary formats, like app native ones? May it be they're just not meant to take load of more than occasional use, so no one cared enough to do the conversion using the trick you are talking about? Btw I often need to convert large amount of data to text and back. Is that trick a common knowledge?
Maybe the native ones have direct access to the meshdata and can write it 1:1 in a file, without the way to get a structure of the exported mesh.
Another option is, that the native format uses assembler for time critical code.
The Softimage native format uses 1sec for the 1mio tri sphere...

The trick i use is not a trick, i use the BString library which are a replacement of the std::string class.
You can found it here:
http://bstring.sourceforge.net/
And an description here:
http://bstring.cvs.sourceforge.net/view ... threv=HEAD

face
Win10 Pro, Driver 378.78, Softimage 2015SP2 & Octane 3.05 RC1,
64GB Ram, i7-6950X, GTX1080TI 11GB
http://vimeo.com/user2509578
Post Reply

Return to “Development Build Releases”