Material Issues - Stonemasons Wintercastle - IRAY

[TRRazor]

As mentioned in another reply to one of your posts - converting a material from one programming language into another one will ALWAYS result in quality differences in the finished outcome. Once MDL is out for Standalone, Paul can see if it will be possible to implement it in a reasonable way into the OCDS plug-in.

The programm at hand here is not, that Paul might be unwilling to get it to work (whch he is not). It all will come down to the fact, if DS was designed in a way so that the materials carry the particular meta that will make it possible to read out the actual MDL structure and read it out in another programm (namely OCDS).

This is nothing Paul can influence as it is coded by DAZ3D.

OctaneRender is superior to Iray in many ways (particular in rendering speed.) Setting up materials can be done in mere seconds, while coding a material of your own with MDL in DS really takes a lot of understanding of the underlying programming language.

I don't remember having read anywhere on the product page of the OCDS plug-in that it will reproduce the visuals of Iray 1:1.
If OCDS would do so, there would be no need for it anymore...

[Leonides02]

Of course there would be a need for it. In fact, it would be much more desirable. As you said, Octane us significantly faster than Iray. I also find it easier to work with.

If setting up materials can be done in mere seconds then I'm doing something wrong. Unfortunately, another part of the problem is that there is very little support on how to set up materials. For instance, if there was documentation on what settings should be a material base for, say, cloth then it wouldn't be so bad. But the tutorials are pretty old and not all that helpful and don't address this kind of thing anyway.

[Hubby72]

As i am switched from OCDS to Iray i can say that Iray needs much more time for preparing the renderdata but when it starts it is not significant slower then octane. And there more complex the scene is with increasing number of lights and use special effects like volumes etc. octane looses more and more ground in speed.
The same kind of scenes if usually had rendered over night are finished within halb of the time. I am doing almost Fantasyscenes so i usually work with lots of lights for effects. And i can say that the renders are also sharper and crispier - even not increasing Renderquality slider and let it on default of 1.
It comes close to luxrender which i never reached with octane and i really tried.

In my opinion it is a huge difference in using octane for programs like C4D or Maya where you created your models and do UV Mapping, Texturing anyhow.
For Programs like DAZ and Poser where users using prebuild contents it lacks the skills of converting materials correctly and forces to users to "rebuild" from scratch to get at least a total different product then he perhaps bought.

I mean look at MDL , this standard did not only exist since yesterday. It is NVidia's Standard to exchange material definitions with other programs that support this material exchange.
So why does an NVidia driven Renderengine like Octane does not support that Standard ?

And i mean if you do not want to see OCDS disappear like Luxrender alreay did i would go into offense as OTOY and try to get involved in development to ensure Octane is THE professional engine for DAZ. Sitting there and wait for an SDK which perhaps supports or supports not what you need is perhaps not the correct way.
It would be for sure a benefit for all involved companies and as well the users. So couldn't this be wrong ?
That's not Paul's Job i guess. That's Otoy. But - and that is what we already saw in the long discussion after t3's disappearing - Is Otoy really interested in being a truely set renderengine for a Casual Program like DAZ ?

I already try to point out that it is an actual problemn. And that OTOY tries now to included MDL proves it. But for me it feels that some people here only laugh at me and think it is Happy Sunday Sommertime and all easy. I do not think so.
And i also wouldn't expect to see MDL support in OCDS within the next 4-5 Month. But even when this will implented. What will be the next ? As long as Otoy will not be as involved as Iray Devs OCDS will fall back over time.
What really counts is that no matter what technical issues are the breakers now - they always can be solved when you created the correct ground and the devs work together.

[Leonides02]

I mean look at MDL , this standard did not only exist since yesterday. It is NVidia's Standard to exchange material definitions with other programs that support this material exchange.
So why does an NVidia driven Renderengine like Octane does not support that Standard ?

Exactly. This seems so obvious. Especially (as you've pointed out) that some DAZ environments no long come with 3DL materials at all... And then default IRAY ends up looking better than Octane. Granted, Octane is flexible and faster, but in the end we paid for flexible, faster, better results. I don't understand why everyone else seems okay with the status quo.

But - and that is what we already saw in the long discussion after t3's disappearing - Is Otoy really interested in being a truely set renderengine for a Casual Program like DAZ ?

.

I think this is a legitimate concern.

[TRRazor]

And i can say that the renders are also sharper and crispier

Try reducing the filter size from the default 1.2 to 1.0 in order to render your scenes out sharper (I'd only recommend this for environmental renders, not for character close-ups).

In my opinion it is a huge difference in using octane for programs like C4D or Maya where you created your models and do UV Mapping, Texturing anyhow.
For Programs like DAZ and Poser where users using prebuild contents it lacks the skills of converting materials correctly and forces to users to "rebuild" from scratch to get at least a total different product then he perhaps bought.

This, and only this is the problem people are having with OCDS. OctaneRender is a fully fledged unbiased rendering engine. DAZ Studio (with Iray) is a programm tailored towards the average Joe who wants to easily start his way into 3DGFX.
To be frank, you can't compare the two at all.
I'm not even going to begin and name all of the reasons why...

I mean look at MDL , this standard did not only exist since yesterday. It is NVidia's Standard to exchange material definitions with other programs that support this material exchange.
So why does an NVidia driven Renderengine like Octane does not support that Standard ?

I agree with you in a way that this should have been there since launch.

And i mean if you do not want to see OCDS disappear like Luxrender

While Luxrenders sales figures have dropped it is not "gone" it's still there.
The only problem with Lux is that it only works correctly when using the CPU for rendering - which, as we all know - takes forever to clear a scene. Hence many people switched to GPU-based renderers like Octane and Iray.
I'm definitely not going to go into how Luxrender feels totally disconnected from its host application in every single way possible. To be honest - its a mess...

But for me it feels that some people here only laugh at me and think it is Happy Sunday Sommertime and all easy.

Nobody ever said that

As long as Otoy will not be as involved as Iray Devs OCDS will fall back over time.

That is because DAZ3D chose Iray and not OctaneRender. Let's just say their attitude towards external developers (also shader developers by the way, I've made my experiences with that ) is "different"

What really counts is that no matter what technical issues are the breakers now - they always can be solved when you created the correct ground and the devs work together.

In the end it all comes down to getting the right tool for the job at hand. If that's not Octane in your case, then that's totally fine. For me Octane is where its at, right now. But then again, I'm looking at this from a developer-point-of-view.

[Leonides02]

This, and only this is the problem people are having with OCDS. OctaneRender is a fully fledged unbiased rendering engine. DAZ Studio (with Iray) is a programm tailored towards the average Joe who wants to easily start his way into 3DGFX.

Right, but do you think it's a small problem? That's the impression I get. Because, to me, it's critical.

I'm the average Joe. I wanted a better and faster render system than iray. From the advertisements, that's what I thought I was buying when I forked over $600. Instead, I got a render system that requires way more time to even get comparable results. Where's the advantage I paid for?

In the end it all comes down to getting the right tool for the job at hand. If that's not Octane in your case, then that's totally fine.

Except Octane isn't free. I can't just throw up my hands and be okay that I wasted that money. We're the customers and we paid for a product that gives better, faster results. Currently, the DAZ plug-in absolutely does not achieve this and it seems it will get worse as more and more content comes in iRay only.

The problem is exacerbated by the total lack of tutorial support. Even if I had the time, I have no idea how to convert what I see in iRay to Octane. And if I did? Why spend time doing that when I can spend time rendering (and doing something else)?

I really don't understand what the advantages are supposed to be.

[linvanchene]

- - -

@ What are the advantages of OcDS and OctaneRender? (State end of 2016)

I really don't understand what the advantages are supposed to be.

In theory:

The OctaneRender plugin for DAZ Studio provides features that facilitate very user friendly workflows that can not be found in DAZ Studio.

Examples:

- Accurate information about VRAM usage of textures, geometry and the system
- You have options to temporarily resize textures so they take less space in VRAM in a dedicated Textures tab
- Fast scene loading to GPU (It takes about twice as long to load Iray scenes to GPU. Whenever you switch activities in DAZ Studio Iray VRAM memory is wiped and the preparing scene loading process restarts.)
- The OctaneRender Image Browser allows you to preview HDR images (you cannot even do that in windows explorer) and you can "bookmark" your favourite folders with textures.
- OcDS has its own animation timeline in which you can keyframe OctaneRender parameters (In the DAZ Studio timeline it is not possible at all to animate Iray related parameters)
- The templating system allows you to set up certain material types and then quickly apply them in combination with right click options like "replace active maps"
- You can render out lighting passes and beauty passes that allow advanced compositing options in software like photoshop.
- There are lot of other small details that make life easier like managing light emitters, bridge to photoshop, RAL color library etc.


Unfortunately many more advanced features of OctaneRender are only available in OctaneRender standalone because the DAZ Studio API or SDK does not support them.
-> You have to export your scene from the plugin to the OR standalone version to access:

- Scene based node graph editor:
The ability to link material nodes to many different surfaces and geometry nodes allows for much faster workflows.
Example: For skin materials you could set up a node with the scattering settings linked to all other skin related materials and surfaces. If you change the settings on the linked node you will immediately see the changes on the whole figure and not just one surface.

- Render layers:
Instead of just capturing shadows on matte planes you can also capture caustics.

- Visible environment:
You can set up one background environment that defines the lighting and another environment that shows up in reflections.

- OpenVDB import for smoke, fire, cloud volumes created with 3rd party software like Houdini

- Access to affordable 3rd party tools like Phantom Scatter for advanced instancing options or Phantom Photo match for photo and 3d model compositing

http://www.phantomtechnology.nl/


etc.

- - -

In practice:

When the first betas of OcDs were available in 2013 a simple auto conversion from 3Delight to OctaneRender materials was an improvement in almost every case.
Now since Iray has become the standard an auto conversion from Iray to OctaneRender destroys most of the hard work artists put in creating great looking MDL shaders.

So yes, I do get your frustration.

We currently are faced with the choice:

A) work in DAZ Studio with Iray without knowing VRAM space, without access to any advanced features

or

B) work with the OctaneRender plugin and waste time trying to recreate materials


- - -
- - -

@ DAZ3D and Otoy preparing MDL support for OcDS together?

What really counts is that no matter what technical issues are the breakers now - they always can be solved when you created the correct ground and the devs work together.

- DAZ staff is writing that they do not know how Otoy is going to implement MDL. This means they currently are not informed what they would need to change or add.
- Otoy staff is writing that they are not sure if the DAZ Studio SDK has the features to support reading MDL shaders by Octane.

My hope is that DAZ3D and Otoy developers can find a way to talk to each other and prepare MDL support together.

With tools like Skype it should be possible that developers of both companies can call each other on a regular basis to discuss the details.

- - -

[Leonides02]

I think that's exactly right, Linvan. The advantages you mentioned are real in theory and they're the reason I purchased the plug-in. But, as you said, they're now overshadowed by the total lack of support for MDL.

If OTOY was working hard on a solution and providing updates, I wouldn't be posting to the forum like a basement shut-in. I'd be working on my renders. I would like OTOY to validate our concerns, let us know what steps they'll take, and what to expect going forward.

[face_off]

I mean look at MDL , this standard did not only exist since yesterday. It is NVidia's Standard to exchange material definitions with other programs that support this material exchange.
So why does an NVidia driven Renderengine like Octane does not support that Standard ?

I think this is inaccurate. MDL is Nvidia's shader language for copying materials between NVidia's renderers (IRay and Mental Ray). I am not aware of any other renderers that support MDL. OTOY are implementing OSL support (Open Shader Language) - which /is/ a standard across many renderers and 3d apps. OSL and MDL do not appear to be compatible.

But, as you said, they're now overshadowed by the total lack of support for MDL.

This is also not accurate. MDL support has nothing to do with IRay material conversion - the plugin can still convert IRay materials to Octane materials without MDL support. DAZStudio does not (as far as I can tell) allow access to the MDL definition of a material - so even if Octane did support MDL, DAZStudio cannot provide it. Also, most IRay materials /do/ convert correctly to Octane material. Some don't, and I have repeatedly requested people provide .duf files for the materials they do not convert, so I can try to add support for these materials. But despite many requests for this information, I have not received a single .duf file containing an IRay material which does not convert correctly to an Octane material.

Paul

[Leonides02]

This is also not accurate. MDL support has nothing to do with IRay material conversion - the plugin can still convert IRay materials to Octane materials without MDL support. DAZStudio does not (as far as I can tell) allow access to the MDL definition of a material - so even if Octane did support MDL, DAZStudio cannot provide it. Also, most IRay materials /do/ convert correctly to Octane material. Some don't, and I have repeatedly requested people provide .duf files for the materials they do not convert, so I can try to add support for these materials. But despite many requests for this information, I have not received a single .duf file containing an IRay material which does not convert correctly to an Octane material.

Hi Paul,

If iray materials convert why we having so many issues? I don't understand our disconnect. As I wrote previously, Octane seems to just be turning many of the surfaces into diffuse material. This is happening in virtually every scene I have. They simply don't look as good to the default in iray. I'll send you the DUF's tonight.

Honestly, I don't want to have to harass you for every new environment I buy. That's not really a workable solution, is it?

I appreciate you writing, but your post is disheartening. How I'm reading it, you've basically said there's no hope for a solution except to send you every new environment we purchase.