Otoys plans for importing / exporting animated OR values?

[linvanchene]

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1) Is it true that most OctaneRender plugins do not offer a way to actually animate OctaneRender specific values?

With OctaneRender specific values I mean parameters like

- light emitter power settings
- rotation of HDR backgrounds, sun position in daylight environment
- values of noise, turbulence, perlin nodes
etc.

What I can observe is that I am currently not being able to readjust any animated OR specific values of imported scenes in OctaneRender standalone.

Example:
If I animated a light emitter power value in a plugin I am not able to reedit that value directly in OctaneRender standalone and setting new keyframes.

So what seems still to be missing is a timeline and keyframe system that is shared between OctaneRender standalone and all plugins.

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One could argue that it would not be a wise investment of the individual plugin developers time to come up with individual timeline solutions.

An efficient way would be for Otoy to make a timeline and keyframe system for OctaneRender values part of the SDK so all plugin developers can integrate those features.

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How do you want to send animated scenes in a non destructive way as .ORBX from one software to the other if there is not one shared timeline and keyframe system?

If users cannot edit the animated values they imported with .ORBX this whole .ORBX export / import workflow is rather limited.

Even companies like Sony and Adobe that are competing with each other work together so customers can send project files with animated video keyframes from one software to the other.

It seems Otoy would like their users to adopt OctaneRender as rendering solution for multiple different software.

One might think coming up with a solution for importing and exporting keyframed animations of OR specific values that are editable in each plugin and OctaneRender standalone should be part of the plans.

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2) Are there any plans to provide a timeline and keyframe system for OctaneRender specific values that is shared between OctaneRender standalone and all the plugins?

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[bepeg4d]

Hi linvanchene,
I cannot speak about Otoy's general plans, but what I can say is that in ORC is already possible to easily update a scene from Standalone or plugin, so, updating a value is not an issue.
What must be always consider is the particular and unique GPU nature of Octane, and beside new features, what is more important, in my opinion, is to preserve and maintain the high Octanes efficency.
I'm guessing, but what do you think about an easy update of ORBX package also in Standalone?
Could it be an alternative solution for your needs?
ciao beppe

[linvanchene]

Hi linvanchene,
I cannot speak about Otoy's general plans, but what I can say is that in ORC is already possible to easily update a scene from Standalone or plugin, so, updating a value is not an issue.
What must be always consider is the particular and unique GPU nature of Octane, and beside new features, what is more important, in my opinion, is to preserve and maintain the high Octanes efficency.
I'm guessing, but what do you think about an easy update of ORBX package also in Standalone?
Could it be an alternative solution for your needs?
ciao beppe

I try to describe the situation from my personal perspective. I cannot claim to speak for others:

In 2013 I decided to put my trust in Otoy because of statements made at GTC 2013.
What impressed me was that Otoy seemed to have a plan to bring more advanced rendering features to all kind of audiences interested in creating computer graphic images and videos.

Since 2013 I was waiting to animate OctaneRender specific values like the power of light emitters, settings of the daylight environment, fractal noise node values in the plugin I use.

In 2016 it is possible to animate those values but for some reason it seems not possible to make native OR values show up in the available timeline of the host application.

I need to use OctaneRender standalone on a regular basis because an increasing number of features cannot be supported in the plugin. And still also in OctaneRender standalone there is no editable timeline and key frame system.

The plugin developer is taking the stance that it would be to time consuming to provide a solution.

The advice I get is:

If you need to animate Octane pin values, use the high-end animation package plugins (Modo, LW, 3dsmax, Maya, C4D).

I do not know if that is the official stance of Otoy on this matter.

I do not think it is a realistic expectation that casual 3D users pay an additional 1'000 to 4'000 dollars just to animate native OctaneRender values and see a convenient overview in an editable timeline.

For some users 3D is a hobby. For many of the casual users paying 450+ $ for OctaneRender standalone and a plugin license is a huge investment.

Showing animated values of a render engine as editable key frames in a timeline overview
is not some kind of advanced feature.

This is a basic requirement for any animation work even in the most simple 3d applications.

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I can see three options.

Option A)
The plugin developers are allowed to invest additional time to bring key frame and timeline features to all OctaneRender plugins.

Option B)
OctaneRender standalone is updated to a central hub with more features that include at least a basic timeline and key frame system.

Option C)
Otoy comes to the conclusion that casual 3D users are not part of the target audience and will focus on high-end software only.

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Personally I would prefer Option B.
To me it seems OctaneRender is getting more advanced features that cannot be supported by all plugins anyway.

This means a lot more users will spend more time adjusting their scenes in OR standalone before the final rendering.

From that point of view it would make sense to also add some kind of editable timeline and key framing system to OctaneRender standalone.

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Nevertheless is up to Otoy to decide where this is going.

What I am asking for is some clear communication from Otoy what their stance is on this matter.

If Otoy is not interested in providing solutions for casual or indie users then I would like to know so I can invest my time in learning how to use alternative options.

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[bepeg4d]

Hi linvanchene,
I can understand your point of view, but I guess that is not a matter of abandon or not the hobbists, the things are a bit more complicated.
Firstly, it's quite difficult that Octane plugins can expose features not allowed directly from the host app. All 3d applications have different approaches and functionality with their own language, so, make them communicate together is not an easy task. But with Octane we are partially there, we already have a common format to transfer to Standalone from different sources also animated assets, and the ORBX format should be only at the beginning of its path
Having said that, you can obtain the best from Octane when used with an integrated plugin inside a powerful 3d app, like the one you have mentioned, but there could be always an app that can do something more
For example Houdini is unbeatable right now in complex geometry tasks, or Nuke with Deep Pixel rendering support is the only solution, but this doesn't mean that Octane could bring this features in other apps that doesn't have this options.
3D artists have to pay for their softwares, but if you are hobbyst or just don't want to pay, you could use Blender that is free and powerful and has a great Octane integrated plugin
I myself always think to switch to Blender sooner or later
Just my 2 cents
ciao beppe

[linvanchene]

Hi linvanchene,
I can understand your point of view, but I guess that is not a matter of abandon or not the hobbists, the things are a bit more complicated.
Firstly, it's quite difficult that Octane plugins can expose features not allowed directly from the host app. All 3d applications have different approaches and functionality with their own language, so, make them communicate together is not an easy task. But with Octane we are partially there, we already have a common format to transfer to Standalone from different sources also animated assets, and the ORBX format should be only at the beginning of its path
Having said that, you can obtain the best from Octane when used with an integrated plugin inside a powerful 3d app, like the one you have mentioned, but there could be always an app that can do something more
For example Houdini is unbeatable right now in complex geometry tasks, or Nuke with Deep Pixel rendering support is the only solution, but this doesn't mean that Octane could bring this features in other apps that doesn't have this options.
3D artists have to pay for their softwares, but if you are hobbyst or just don't want to pay, you could use Blender that is free and powerful and has a great Octane integrated plugin
I myself always think to switch to Blender sooner or later
Just my 2 cents
ciao beppe

I do appreciate very much that you are taking the time to read trough my situation report and making suggestions.

I put together a chart that summarizes the situation from my point of view:

My impression is that users like me who are already familiar with OctaneRender are more likely to accept some kind of compromise.
But I currently have a very hard time finding arguments why new users should use OR instead of other alternatives.

Hopefully Otoy can surprise existing and new users with some unexpected good news rather sooner than later.

[abstrax]

I didn't read your whole posts because they are always too long and I just don't have time, but this is the situation right now: All parameters can be animated and can also be stored animated. What is missing in the Standalone is a timeline where you can animate and edit animated attributes via curves, keys, loops, etc.. An animation timeline is nothing trivial and needs to be done right otherwise it's useless. We currently don't have the resources to do a proper timeline and since about 90% of the Octane renders are done outside the Standalone, it doesn't have the highest priority right now.

In the future we want to extent the scope of the Standalone and this probably includes a proper animation system, but until then your best bet is to use one of the usual 3D applications (C4D, Maya, 3ds max, Lightwave, Modo, Blender, ...) and create the scenes and animations there and render them with the corresponding Octane plugin. If you want to do some project, always look which tools are available and use those that are appropriate. Don't try to use a screwdriver as a hammer or the other way around

[FrankPooleFloating]

Hey linvanchene, Lightwave is still on sale for $695. It has (arguably) the best plug dev (Juanjo) and allows you to animate OR properties, as Marcus says....

Speaking of Marcus, since he so graciously opened the door for me, I must also confess that I seldom read your posts. They are way, way too long, and honestly not written in a format that my human eyes/brain can seem to comprehend and/or follow. Your format of Summary - additional explanation - subjective commentary or impressions ain't helpin. Not picking on you, just giving a friendly heads-up.

[linvanchene]

@ abstrax

All parameters can be animated and can also be stored animated. What is missing in the Standalone is a timeline where you can animate and edit animated attributes via curves, keys, loops, etc.. An animation timeline is nothing trivial and needs to be done right otherwise it's useless. We currently don't have the resources to do a proper timeline and since about 90% of the Octane renders are done outside the Standalone, it doesn't have the highest priority right now.

In the future we want to extent the scope of the Standalone and this probably includes a proper animation system, but until then your best bet is to use one of the usual 3D applications (C4D, Maya, 3ds max, Lightwave, Modo, Blender, ...) and create the scenes and animations there and render them with the corresponding Octane plugin.

Thank you for addressing my concerns. It gives me the impression that you are aware of the potential OctaneRender standalone has.
I enjoy working in standalone because the Node Graph Editor allows to edit the whole scene with nodes.
Nodes on a scene level could be very powerful in animations.
As far as I am aware even many of the "high end software" plugins do not have a scene based node graph editor.

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If you want to do some project, always look which tools are available and use those that are appropriate. Don't try to use a screwdriver as a hammer or the other way around

My short answer:

Don’t use a cannon to shoot a sparrow.

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I did have a look at a lot of different 3d applications to find the right tool for the right task.

Which OctaneRender plugin can currently be used in an .ORBX scene import - export workflow without loosing all the vital information?

Please share your thoughts in the thread created in the offtopic forum.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=52816

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[grimm]

I enjoy working in standalone because the Node Graph Editor allows to edit the whole scene with nodes.
As far as I am aware even many of the "high end" plugins do not have a scene based node graph editor.

The Blender plugin does, but I don't know if you would consider it "high end" or not. Cycles uses nodes as well so it was an easy fit for Octane.

[face_off]

Which OctaneRender plugin can currently be used in an .ORBX scene import - export workflow without loosing all the vital information?

The Nuke plugin.

Paul