ACES way to control how much the highlights gets compressed? Tweet

[MantasKava]

Well, yeah, that's obvious. But now for example I decided that default AgX highlights compensation/compression is too much or too less for me- the only solution to adjust that is PP in an external app, correct?

[SSmolak]

I had the same problem months ago.

ACES = most of the highlights and shadowing you must do in post
OCIO like Blender Filmic, Agx, Octane Camera settings -> you have it already done like In-Render tone mapping.

If you use Agx or any other OCIO like filmic you don't have any control about highlight compensation because these are already compensated.

Only way is to render in plain linear or ACES - everything else is POST.

If you want control highlights in realtime the best way is to use default Octane camera highlight compenstation.

[MantasKava]

I see. So which path/method did you end up choosing? and why?

[SSmolak]

Blender Filmic I think is the best because you can choose many contrast scenarios and you see final render in Octane View.
But if you have many time for doing the same and even more in post - the best is to render linear exr 32bit and do everything manually.
ACES is the best for interiors and product like visualizations. This is my opinion.

[SSmolak]

Generally there is no need to use any OCIO or ACES in Octane. All of these things are for lazy people or if you want generate renderings without or very little post processing.

Octane has build-in many presets for custom LUT's or Responses in Camera Imager. They are really good.

[MantasKava]

While trying out these new workflows a few new questions came to my mind:
1. Is it possible to use LUTs on top when using OCIO? Maybe some custom one, so the LiveViewer/IPR better represents what I'll be getting after the PP
2. What's the difference between Response and LUT? To me it looks like they both do pretty much the same thing.
3. Let's say I am using default Octane color management. What is the best way to control roll-off of the highlights and contrast? Tried all of these default/custom Response types and LUTs, but it looks like most of them add some funky colors as well, which I don't like. I just want to adjust highlights/highlight roll-off and contrast.

[elsksa]

There is an accumulation of misunderstanding and misconception, in this thread..

The only solution to adjust that is PP in an external app, correct?

For manual control, an "OCIO package" won't be the solution. However, not using an OCIO solution like Filmic AgX, opens the door to many issues that will 100% occur and won't be properly handled.
I'm wondering if proper monitors are properly calibrated and if the viewing conditions are accordingly respected.

ACES = most of the highlights and shadowing you must do in post
OCIO like Blender Filmic, Agx, Octane Camera settings -> you have it already done like In-Render tone mapping.
compenstation.

I'm not sure to clearly understand the ACES part.
ACES works differently than Filmic OCIO.
It's a whole color encoding system with various "processing steps", simply and briefly said.
It's not the same as using it like one would use a LUT.

But if you have many time for doing the same and even more in post - the best is to render linear exr 32bit and do everything manually.

16-bit for beauty. No need for 32-bit.

ACES is the best for interiors and product like visualizations. This is my opinion.

Neither of would be considered "best" for a specific type of 3D scenery.
As shown and mentioned, Filmic AgX (especially in Octane) can be closely match to the ACES (RRT+ODT sRGB) look, additionally to providing an improved imagery rendition.

If you want control highlights in realtime the best way is to use default Octane camera highlight compenstation.

It's currently the only native option, but not the most proper/appropriate way: outdated.

Generally there is no need to use any OCIO or ACES in Octane. All of these things are for lazy people or if you want generate renderings without or very little post processing.
Octane has build-in many presets for custom LUT's or Responses in Camera Imager. They are really good.

That is an absolutely false and misleading statement. And quite disrespectful. I'm a working professional in digital production & post-production, using OCIO doesn't make me or any other professionals "lazy". Color Grading & Finishing is optionally done without OCIO.
OCIO is the standard in post-production (VFX, feature animation and beyond). More information here.
Octane's own "imagery-too" are no longer up to today's standards.

Many people are completely unaware of the hidden "jobs" in post-production: DIT, Colorist, Image Science Engineer, to only name a few. All of what has been mentioned as "limitations" in this thread, is possible, but requires a highly specific qualification, knowledge and skill set. It's a job on its own and requires years of experience. Not for the faint of heart (and not as simple and easy as what uninformed YouTubers make people think).

They are really good.

A vague description of a "good" feeling from untrained eyes of an unknowledgeable source, can not become a reliable recommendation. In other words: someone's "good" feeling is not enough to state how proper and appropriate a solution can be.

While trying out these new workflows a new question came to my mind- is it possible to use LUTs on top when using OCIO? Maybe some custom one, so the LiveViewer/IPR better represents what I'll be getting after the PP

This also goes against the purpose of OCIO. Doing so will break the imagery.
I believe it's mentioned on this page, if not, I remember mentioning it on this similar thread.

[MantasKava]

This also goes against the purpose of OCIO. Doing so will break the imagery.

It would break if I would bake it/export it with LUT applied, but that's not the idea. The idea is to only use that LUT for LiveViewer/IPR while look dev'ing. No? Reason why I'm asking this- I really like AgX's look/how it deals with highlights, but I feel like it kills/flattens the highlights maybe a little too much even (just like ACES). And custom LUT could help here I believe? Or what's the other options I have? to keep the AgX OCIO/workflow, but make it so it doesn't compress the highlights THAT much.
I found with AgX I have to increase my exposure from 1.5 to 4.0 to make my white-colored materials (srgb 220) look white (and not grey) again. And after increasing the exposure that much, all the contrast is gone, which makes the image very flat.

Also, I updated my previous comment with more questions:

While trying out these new workflows a few new questions came to my mind:
1. Is it possible to use LUTs on top when using OCIO? Maybe some custom one, so the LiveViewer/IPR better represents what I'll be getting after the PP
2. What's the difference between Response and LUT? To me it looks like they both do pretty much the same thing.
3. Let's say I am using default Octane color management. What is the best way to control roll-off of the highlights and contrast? Tried all of these default/custom Response types and LUTs, but it looks like most of them add some funky colors as well, which I don't like. I just want to adjust highlights/highlight roll-off and contrast.

[elsksa]

The idea is to only use that LUT for LiveViewer/IPR while look dev'ing. No?

The LUT or even OCIO is intended to be used in Octane for preview-purposes, indeed.
Baking would occur for a web-ready JPG case, which is not common, professionally speaking (at small or large studios, in VFX, etc).

I really like AgX's look/how it deals with highlights, but I feel like it kills/flattens the highlights maybe a little too much even (just like ACES). And custom LUT could help here I believe?

No to both. LUTs are limited and should not be used as the back bone of a color-pipeline.
Basically, OCIO is a much more mathematically accurate solution. The same goes for digital motion-picture post-production ("movies"), although not all post-houses respect that or have a proper color-pipeline.

Or what's the other options I have? to keep the AgX OCIO/workflow, but make it so it doesn't compress the highlights THAT much.
I found with AgX I have to increase my exposure from 1.5 to 4.0 to make my white-colored materials (srgb 220) look white (and not grey) again. And after increasing the exposure that much, all the contrast is gone, which makes the image very flat.

Exactly. This is half of the answer. The other half is to use proper light energy.

In other words, it's strongly recommended to "boost the lighting", and ensuring to avoid inappropriate Octane Kernel render settings. Doing so will basically said, yield "punchy" results with pleasant highlights yet strong and properly "contained".

Rudimentary gif demonstration
OPEN the gif file to play it, I think it doesn't on the forum):

Also, I updated my previous comment with more questions:
1. Is it possible to use LUTs on top when using OCIO? Maybe some custom one, so the LiveViewer/IPR better represents what I'll be getting after the PP

It is technically possible but should be absolutely avoided. As previously mentioned, this would result in a broken color pipeline and will break the imagery. It's irrational.

2. What's the difference between Response and LUT? To me it looks like they both do pretty much the same thing.

Briefly: there are two commonly known type of LUTs, 1D and 3D, with various interpolations. A LUT is dependent upon the “quality of the source data” and basically transforms an input value to an output value. It's limited in many ways and not used as the core base of a color-pipeline.
What Octane ships with is a list of creative and technical LUTs.
None of them should be used to properly conformed the light data and none of them are up to today's standards. The creative LUTs is an old pack that have been laying around on the internet for some years.

3. Let's say I am using default Octane color management. What is the best way to control roll-off of the highlights and contrast? Tried all of these default/custom Response types and LUTs, but it looks like most of them add some funky colors as well, which I don't like. I just want to adjust highlights/highlight roll-off and contrast.

I will appear as pedantic: I can not stress enough: don't use the default color management aka the straight linear to non-linear sRGB. This is simply wrong and inappropriate. There is so much more than just the aesthetic "highlights" of a high dynamic range scene, with an intricate relationship to "colors" (intentionally avoiding the technical terminology/wording). This isn't 2000s or 2010s any more.
I believe that decades of broken digital imagery have been basically brainwashing people that have to understand the fundamentals and re-learn how to view images again. No judgement, here. The importance is awareness and acknowledging the unavoidable needed fundamentals.

[MantasKava]

Okay, help me understand what I am doing wrong then, because I am not getting that "Punchy" look when using AgX (OCIO View set to Punchy).
From what I know, RGB values (non-linear) for the brightest whites should be at rgb ~234 max, and rgb ~30 for the darkest blacks, that is for the brightest and darkest materials in the world (with maybe some rare exceptions). Keeping that in mind, let's say that usual white painted wall albedo value should be at rgb ~220, and black painted wall at rgb ~40.
And here's HDRi (HDRI created by Jorgen Herland, he knows his stuff) lit scene that I use for look development for many years now. And there are two cubes in the scene, one with albedo at 220, and another at 40. Now for the wall (for example) to look like it's nice/bright white painted wall, it has to be somewhere in 210-220 values. But here in the screenshots bellow you can see black cube's values are alright and it looks as black as it should be, but the white one is way under exposed, ~180 rgb only. I know the values I've entered for materials/albedo are correct, but there's still a problem, white cube isn't white at all.
Now how do I brighten midtones/highlights, but keep shadows as they are? I can't increase the exposure because blacks will become grey, and same problem with increasing power of the light source of course.
And even if I increase the albedo value to 234, it only gets to rgb ~190 in the LiveViewer. Values of 230-240 should be left for the world's brightest materials only, and not a simple white painted wall I am creating here.

Red dot is where the color values was picked from