Rigged Character FBX: Maya > Octane (geometry problem)

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Rigged Character FBX: Maya > Octane (geometry problem)

Postby Acerdotal » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:02 pm

Acerdotal Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:02 pm
Hello!

I'm unsure if this is the proper forum, but is the closest related I could find.

Introduction:
For the past few days, I've been wrestling with a problem importing an FBX file containing a lengthy animated rigged character from Maya 2016 into Octane Standalone v4.

The character is comprised of many parts, rigged onto a simple skeleton. For the record, I did not build or rig the model, rather I had it commissioned for the project I'm managing.
At this point, I'm the only one left actively working on the project, and my technical skills include beating programs with a stick until they work in the way I need them to, so patient, detailed explanations for any potential solutions are greatly appreciated. I'll provide any additional information that I can upon request.
I'm otherwise a compositor and light modeler.

The Details:
From the beginning, everything appears to be working just fine within Maya. The animation plays, and everything is where it's supposed to be. The problem occurs when I export the whole sequence as an FBX file to bring into Octane. Upon import, the geometry of the character scatters about seemingly randomly in position, rotation, and scale, and I've tinkered with various settings, such as unlocking the transforms of the geometry and freezing the transforms, re-locking them, which seems to mitigate the problem slightly in some of the geometry, but not all. The trouble is that I can't seem to find any correlation between where an object erroneously appears in Octane to the transforms in Maya, whether it be the geometry or the bones.
I've also tried saving the geometry as geometry cache, but not only does it create a cache file for every single object (an organizational nightmare which is worse than another workaround I'm trying to avoid which I'll outline later), Maya also freezes permanently upon completion of generating the caches or importing them to the meshes, presumably due to the sheer length and enormity of the sequence beyond my PC's ability to process, so I don't know if these caches would even solve the problem or not.

The Workaround:
Like geometry caches, I can export the sequence as an alembic cache and I've utilized this method in the past for this project, but nowhere on this scale (and admittedly prior to the support of FBX importation). The trouble with the alembic cache format is it only supports one UV set and shader, and this particular model has sixteen, so the workaround is to delete geometry leaving only the geometry with a specific shader and export it as alembic, and then repeating this process per shader group, then reassembling the collection of alembic caches within Octane and plugging the appropriate materials into each node. This is not ideal due to the finality that it imposes. The export process is easily a day's work and God forbid a mistake gets made somewhere or something needs to be adjusted.
The entire FBX sequence exports within 20 seconds with all motion, UVs, and shaders neatly packaged into one nice, reasonably lightweight container, but blighted only by exploding geometry that makes the character resemble a flying swarm of junk rather than a cohesive unit. The FBX sequence reduces the amount of work that needs to be done in the long run by magnitudes so working it out is up on the priority list.

Hypotheses:
I suspect something went weird on the rigger/animator's end but I can't be sure. Perhaps transform data of the geometry or the bones is not translating well into the way Octane interprets transform data. As mentioned in the introduction though, I haven't been able to find any correlation to where an object appears to be with its position data in Maya.

This may also potentially be solved by purchasing the Octane plugin for Maya. This is really a last resort for me as this is a personal project and I'm trying to keep my costs at a minimum to tools I've had access to already.

In closing, I greatly appreciate any thoughts, suggestions and insight you can provide. Thank you for putting up with my long winded outline of the problem.

Screenshots:
Image
Image
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Re: Rigged Character FBX: Maya > Octane (geometry problem)

Postby calus » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:52 pm

calus Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:52 pm
Hi Acerdotal, I think I can help here,
Indeed I was really surprized by the quality of the FBX support in Octane, was not expecting so much,
but then Maya FBX exporter is so exhaustive, it's very easy to trigger unexpected results.
I guess the rig must be analyzed to choose the best export setting for each part :
Maybe some parts of the geometry are skinned to the skeletton but other are constrained other only parented,
is there other history than the skin on the geometry ? Is there any scale on tjhe joint, or joints in scaled groups ?
Do you see any issue when you import back the FBX in Maya ?

Would be easier to help you about this in the Maya Octane skype discussion group (find the link in my signature),
this group is not only about the Maya Octane plugin but also about Standalone and Maya.
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Re: Rigged Character FBX: Maya > Octane (geometry problem)

Postby Acerdotal » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:32 pm

Acerdotal Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:32 pm
Thank you for your response!

You've given me a few insights and while I haven't tested all of them, it's worth noting that I haven't found any scale issues on the joints, except the root controller which was scaled for the sake of keeping things a manageable size in dimension. There's some odd position/rotation/scaling going in in some geometry, most of which I can clear easily, which I think I mentioned in the original post, but only mitigates the problem, not solving it.

Interestingly, I re-imported the FBX to Maya by your suggestion and it gave a warning within the logs:
Code: Select all
2019-03-03 01:10:00: LOG: [WARNING] BindPose - Incomplete BindPose [nodes parents] - The following parent and/or ancestor node(s) is/are not part of the BindPose definition. Head Body1 Right_Scapula Left_Scapula Right_Shoulder_Socket Right_Shoulder Right_Arm Right_Bicep Right_Forearm Right_Hand Left_Shoulder_Socket Left_Bicep Left_Arm Left_Pauldron left_Forearm Elbow_Greebles Left_Hand Right_Wing Wings Left_Wing Right_Thigh Right_Leg Right_Foot Left_Thigh Left_Leg Left_Upper_KneeFBXASC0321 Left_Knee Left_Foot

While I'm not 100% sure, but around 95% sure these are in fact the problem geometry.

However, since I'm not an expert in Maya, I currently have no idea how to approach the problem. But this is an important first step in identifying the demon's name. Any further insight is greatly appreciated!
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Re: Rigged Character FBX: Maya > Octane (geometry problem)

Postby calus » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:35 pm

calus Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:35 pm
Not sure this warning have something to do with your problems, but I don't have enough informations.

So trying to guess I think maybe you are exporting the whole scene in the FBX, if yes you should instead use the "export selected" to separate in 3 export groups for debugging purpose.
1 - first export static geometry with the 'animation" option disabled
2 - then export geometry with animated transform,
3 - then export geometry with vertex animation (skinned to skeleton or another deformer)

If your problems are in the group 2 then as a test try to export with "animation" disabled to see if you have the same transform issue,
if not then the problem is in the animation curve generated by the FBX exporter, check again that you have the "bake animation" option enabled in the exporter,
or pre-bake the animation on this objects inside maya.

if your problem is in group 3 then some geometry may use some unsupported Maya deformer as the wrap deformer,
the simple way to workaround is to export these geometry with the "geometry cache" option
(so select these geometry > create a quick selection set > select the set in the exporter )
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Re: Rigged Character FBX: Maya > Octane (geometry problem)

Postby Acerdotal » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:44 pm

Acerdotal Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:44 pm
Thank you again for your continuing assistance.

After returning home today, I tried as you suggested, and I found that Group 1 with animation disabled still scatters the geometry. This is with the geometry and skeleton selected and none of the other scene components. If I only export the geometry without bones selected, I get the T-pose, which makes sense.
Group 2 is basically what I've already been doing, by my understanding, but I don't quite understand what makes group 2 and 3 different, so I haven't done 3 yet as I'm not sure how.

Now, the geometry cache option is one I'll tentatively try. I'd somewhat attempted it before and it resulted in program freezing. But I suspect that this may also be non-ideal due to the large volume of small parts that each get their own cache file if I understand correctly, which would seem to be much more work than simply splitting it into alembic caches by material groups instead.
I may have done it incorrectly, but I selected the geometry and created the quick select set by your suggestion and assigned it to the FBX exporter under the geometry cache and it yields another warning
Code: Select all
The FBX plug-in cannot export the Geometry Cache for the following reason(s): No set is selected for geometry cache export, the selected set is empty, or the selection set is applied to the shape node of the object instead of its transform node: quick select set test
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Re: Rigged Character FBX: Maya > Octane (geometry problem)

Postby Acerdotal » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:24 pm

Acerdotal Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:24 pm
Okay, I tried something different with the quick select set.
I realized I had not actually selected the geometry properly after sitting and thinking about that last warning from Maya.

The quick select set was re-done by selecting the proper meshes and that set was selected in the export and it began to do something different:
It began writing a load of enormous cache files for every mesh until my hard drive was drained of space. I have no idea how much it actually needs to complete this, but in the end, it just wasn't able to write an FBX file likely because there was no drive space left.
I'll try a small scale test, but the enormity of this particular scene may prove this method to be impractical as it may very well need a upgrade this hard drive anyway, but by the time I sink that cost, I may as well get a Maya plugin license and have it render right within Maya.

Still, it's interesting! I just wish I could see the conclusion of this method.
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Re: Rigged Character FBX: Maya > Octane (geometry problem)

Postby Acerdotal » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:48 pm

Acerdotal Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:48 pm
So, good news and not completely bad news!

Your geometry cache suggestion worked perfectly in the small scale test!
The not so great news is that the cache files are enormous (shy of 10gb collectively for 100 frames out of a sequence containing roughly 4,000 frames) and I would absolutely need a whole new hard drive to fit all of that. And unfortunately, it seems this particular FBX exportation method is dependent on the existence of the caches so I can't just delete them without them vanishing from the Octane scene. But at least it's something! For the first time, it's not a flying swarm of junk. There's a couple odds and ends that still need fixing, but I may be able to iron them out with this method you've given me.

Thank you so very much for your insight and help! I wouldn't have figured this out without you.

Now the choice must be made to either buy a new hard drive or a Maya Octane License.
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Re: Rigged Character FBX: Maya > Octane (geometry problem)

Postby calus » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:12 pm

calus Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:12 pm
Acerdotal wrote:Now the choice must be made to either buy a new hard drive or a Maya Octane License.

I''m not sure how you would use the Maya plugin, is it for the ORBX exporter ?
or is it to render directly inside Maya ?

In the first case, well ORBX won't be smaller than the FBX, on the contrary, FBX was you best choice to get the smallest geometry exported, smaller than ORBX and Alembic (orbx anyway use alembic or obj internally)
also I think you still may be using the FBX exporter wrong:
For example do you have the smooth mesh option enabled ? if not, well that might your weigh issue:
When the smooth mesh FBX setting is not enabled then the Maya smoth preview are tesselated at export time making the exported files a lot bigger,
on the contrary if it's enabled the FBX file in Octane will use builtin Subvision Surface to smooth the mesh at render time so no file extra weight.

In the second case If you would use the plugin to render directly inside Maya then TRY THE DEMO first to make sure you are able to make it work quickly, and that you don't have new issues inside Maya,
also for materials I advise you to use "ORBX materials", as this use basically the Standalone UI inside Maya.
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Re: Rigged Character FBX: Maya > Octane (geometry problem)

Postby Acerdotal » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:20 am

Acerdotal Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:20 am
I've used a demo of the Maya plugin a a couple years ago and I'm not entirely certain what all it does, but I know it definitely uses Octane to render directly within Maya if I recall correctly. It way very well even have orbx support.
I would, of course, try the demo again first.

As per your suggestion, I enabled smooth mesh and it yielded no change in the file sizes.

But now there is one last little issue that needs to be worked out:
There is some geometry that is grouped with the bones but doesn't appear to be "attached" (I don't know the proper nomenclature, I'm sorry) to them like the rest of the model, and I'd neglected to include them in the geometry before, and when I include them in the export, Maya gives me a warning saying that
Code: Select all
// Warning line 1: Geometry cache may be static. 'Wrist_Greebles' does not appear to have animation on its construction history or control points.

This results in that specific geometry staying completely still as the rest moves away. I don't know why was this wasn't attached properly to the bones since I wasn't the one who did it.
Unfortunately, the inclusion of this skipped geometry into the caches kicks the collective file size up by another 50% or so. This seems it can't be helped unless you have another idea I'm not aware of. The models are all rather high poly from the beginning.
I will continue to tinker with this and see if I can get it to work as I wait for any further insights from you.

Thank you again! :D
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Re: Rigged Character FBX: Maya > Octane (geometry problem)

Postby calus » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:10 am

calus Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:10 am
Acerdotal wrote:I've used a demo of the Maya plugin a a couple years ago and I'm not entirely certain what all it does, but I know it definitely uses Octane to render directly within Maya if I recall correctly. It way very well even have orbx support.
I would, of course, try the demo again first.

As per your suggestion, I enabled smooth mesh and it yielded no change in the file sizes.

But now there is one last little issue that needs to be worked out:
There is some geometry that is grouped with the bones but doesn't appear to be "attached" (I don't know the proper nomenclature, I'm sorry) to them like the rest of the model, and I'd neglected to include them in the geometry before, and when I include them in the export, Maya gives me a warning saying that
Code: Select all
// Warning line 1: Geometry cache may be static. 'Wrist_Greebles' does not appear to have animation on its construction history or control points.

This results in that specific geometry staying completely still as the rest moves away. I don't know why was this wasn't attached properly to the bones since I wasn't the one who did it.
Unfortunately, the inclusion of this skipped geometry into the caches kicks the collective file size up by another 50% or so. This seems it can't be helped unless you have another idea I'm not aware of. The models are all rather high poly from the beginning.
I will continue to tinker with this and see if I can get it to work as I wait for any further insights from you.

Thank you again! :D

Hum I would have to explain you many things, please join the skype help group : https://join.skype.com/LXEQaqqfN15w
(just click on the link, this is just a chat , you don't even need to have skype installed )
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