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The ultimate goaI is photorealism, for me as a hobbyist, noncommercial and doing my simple spaceships etc.

So, recently stumbled across various material tutorials ... like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVbIhe2eDxc with Grant Warwick explaining a complex metal material. The nice thing about this tutorial is, that it isn't just simplified reference, i.e. not just "we have a mix material node, lets mix two things". The simplified tutorials do not explain why you do what you do often. As a complete newbie in the hobby segment and non-commercial, I'm a bit confused by the large node trees and often don't exactly understand why things are done in the ways they were done. The great thing about the quoted tutorial from grant is that he starts off with a reference ... the truck and then shows why and how you recreate it, carefully explaining each node option selected and why. That's the only way I see to more or less quickly learn how to recreate reality (a thanks here to people like Grant to make some of these videos free to watch ... as hobbyist, I'm a bit limited in my budget and most products offer no "indy/hobbyist" prices and only differ between students and commercial professionals). While playing around myself with the various sliders is crucial to learning, it's not effective with the many possibilities at hand. It feels like learning Chinese by merely listening to people and guessing the alphabet and grammar on your own. You'll know what letters/icons are, what a word is... Thats how i know what some of the nodes do, having created simple materials with Textures etc, but beyond that it's a big question mark Why multiply instead of mixing textures? What does it really do? How to properly use falloff? Whats fresnel? Heard things watched videos but where does it apply in Octane? Where's the learning book for Octane like the one for Chinese?

I tried to watch the videos of the Vray renderer, but I'm having a really hard time applying it to octane. Some of the general ideas are clear, but since many node sliders have similar effects (specularity or roughness changing the way reflections look etc) its soemtimes difficult to realize which property I should play with to get what nature does. So I wonder, are any very experienced 3D people like Grant going to create Octane tutorials of the same quality at some point? The most important point is the goal oriented approach, i. e. here is a real apple, why does it look how it looks, what are the physics at work, how and why do we represent that in Octane.

Try reading SIGGRAPH research papers and books in general like Digital Lightning and Rendering 3rd Edition for example and you will get your answers

Soon you will be able to make your own pancakes

I agree with Voon that the manual is poor about nodes explanations. I asked several times about the use of some kinds of nodes without getting an answer. Even after some years of experience, there are still some remaining mysterious nodes for me !

00Ghz wrote:Try reading SIGGRAPH research papers and books in general like Digital Lightning and Rendering 3rd Edition for example and you will get your answers

Soon you will be able to make your own pancakes

That only partially helps ... I would like Octane tutorials, goal oriented as stated. As I said, seeing how they do it with other renderers often doesn't really help me understand how I need to approach it with Octane.

Also: It's not a reproach/accustation .... I would merely like to know if any of the real pros which know material generation in and out are interested in making really extensive tutorials purely based on octane. Everybody can load a metal texture they found on the web into a diffuse node. But as soon as you need very high res textures, nonrepetitive, with complex light falloffs, multilayered materials, colors made up of base coats and top coats things get very foggy ... we all can shove around the sliders a bit to get something we think is probably realistic.

But REALLY knowing what you do down to every digit of the number you just entered is an entirely other story. Tricking and making maximum use of what your particular renderer offers is unknown to most I assume.

I would like to see a real pro give us newbies insight into complex octane materials as presented in the tutorials I've seen from Grant Warwick.

Ok got it.

Now one thing you need to consider that Octane is still missing features as more advanced procedurals, controls etc. So in practice that means some of the stuff you see in other engines is not yet easily possible or not at all.

As far as the theory goes it is very important. Using Octane nodes doesn't require an advanced tutorial at all. They are easy to set up. I could replicate much of the stuff in the free tut by Grant(not all however due to lack of features) in some way inside Octane(it's pretty easy in fact). However making various materials does require a good knowledge of theory and also just as important experimentation. Having some pro guy making a advanced goal tut won't help you much when you have to make your own things from scratch. It will just help you become a better copycat . In essence nodes are just a way to put theory into practice.

For example your question....when to use multiply instead of mixing. That's lack of knowledge about theory behind your question because you don't understand clearly how multiply or mixing works. Here this will help you Hidden-Power-Blend-Modes-Photoshop Book. Search on Amazon or whatever bookstore you want for it. I can compare being a noob with being a baby. You expect someone to make food and feed it to you. Being grown up(pro) means buying your ingredients and cooking for yourself even if it means failing sometimes. Same for top coats/ bottom coats confusing part. There are at least 2 SIGGRAPH research papers from 2009 onwards that explain the matter clearly. I can tell you from my own experience, once you know the theory properly making complex nodes will come naturally.

And yes, the manual is poor unfortunately. What nodes are mysterious to you ROUBAL?

just a perspective:

for someOne to put as much time scripting out, explaining, recording, producing videos for free there must be a "bigger picture", I mean some sort of monetising option (to make at least some payback for all the time)..-You want something good (that takes a lot from someOne) but for free for You (in terms of money or time)..- it's a bit..selfish I guess.

there are already scenes around from users who try to share their knowledge. as a sign of "thank You" for community they've learned a lot from, but I do understand them that putting out really high end content out for free make little to no sense at all =)

to end up, I do agree with You that those simple tuts aren't very helpful if they rely only making video version of manual..


by no means I would call myself an advanced user, but if You find this useful & writing style acceptable I could try to make more stuff like this : Lounge Chair - free scene for Octane Render + few tips on fighting the noise

To answer one specific question, yes Grant will be doing an Octane course in the future. I can't find the link, but I recall reading a quote in an interview where he said it's something he'd like to start on next year.

riggles wrote:To answer one specific question, yes Grant will be doing an Octane course in the future. I can't find the link, but I recall reading a quote in an interview where he said it's something he'd like to start on next year.

considering some tuts from FX hive, not so long ago Immortal arts made one for them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4EaYVgYOas or this by Curse studios https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcd28CdfVMI
- not so interest in C4D/OR combination, so I haven't took tike to get thru it =) so don't really know whey are all about..

riggles wrote:To answer one specific question, yes Grant will be doing an Octane course in the future. I can't find the link, but I recall reading a quote in an interview where he said it's something he'd like to start on next year.

That's nice to hear

PS: I do not expect these to be free. It would be nice to continue the discussion without insinuations of "selfish" or RTFM etc. It would be cool though, if there was a hobbyist/indie price (like Allegorithmic does for example).