OTOY Forums

Goldorak wrote:In case it wasn't clear, we are planning to address updates related to the current version first. Work on V3 will follow that.

It wasn't clear to me actually, thanks for the update. I feel much better

Goldorak wrote:There is a V3 plug-in coming. We are making necessary changes to ensure it is released in a timely manner alongside other V3 plug-ins. We expect these changes will further improve communication and updates in general along the way there.

We are hoping to finalize the remaining details in the coming weeks so that we can finally announce exactly what these changes will entail.

Are you going to release the OSX version too? Because I see the 2.0 it's only Windows. Thanks

Goldorak wrote:

leblancd wrote:

Goldorak wrote:There is a V3 plug-in coming. We are making necessary changes to ensure it is released in a timely manner alongside other V3 plug-ins. We expect these changes will further improve communication and updates in general along the way there.

We are hoping to finalize the remaining details in the coming weeks so that we can finally announce exactly what these changes will entail.

Ok. Finally some information.

First, assuming that a price will be attached to the V3 plug-in, I sincerely hope you don't expect us to buy it, since we *still* haven't got what we already paid for.
Secondly, why would anyone that has not already paid for the plugin buy into a V3 plug-in, given all the frustrations V1 and V2 have had in this forum?
What assurances can you give us that things will ACTUALLY improve at all with a version 3 plugin??
Please don't misunderstand -- I'm sure V3 is great and full of gee-whiz new features, but without an active developer supporting a V3 plugin, along with V1 and/or V2, this will be yet another round of frustration, wasted time, and angry digital artists.

Goldorak, we simply need more than that to go on.
You can't ask paying/paid customers to go on faith any longer -- that was burned when V2 never materialized.
We are still waiting for what is already long overdue. Any announcement of something "newer" or "improved" will need to meet VERY high expectations, to recompense what was already lost in V1/V2. Something new is not a matter of improving what we already have.
It is a matter of finally delivering something worthy of the premium price that is charged. That includes well more than a V3 plug-in.

I look forward to your response in these matters.

My response is to wait while we work out details this month. I can't speak to your expectations, but the changes we are making satisfy ours, and we are taking this seriously. We realize t-3 did not communicate enough with the community. I am sorry were not able to step in any sooner than this. Communication is important. Let us handle this. Then tell us how we did.

Very well, I'll explain my expectations further.
I expect to have a working Octane for Daz Studio plugin without having to buy yet ANOTHER version of the software.
A working version should be supported such that if/when Octane or Daz Studio changes (as it most definitely will), the plugin will continue to work.
Historically, this has not been the case, for many reasons, all of which I as a paying customer should not need to be concerned with.
Now, your response is "we have a new version coming". This solves our problems HOW, exactly? What changes are you making in this process?

I'm grateful you have finally stepped in to try to resolve the situation, but I see zero new information or results, other than an announcement for an upcoming new version that we may or may not need to purchase. In fact, given your response, it seems like you are focusing more on a new version, and making sure it rolls out next to the plugins of the other 3D software, instead of finally giving Daz and OcDS a seat at the grownup table.

Not completely sure, that I catch your meaning, but what exactly in the below quoted answer by Goldorak did you not understand?

In case it wasn't clear, we are planning to address updates related to the current version first. Work on V3 will follow that.

This clearly indicates, that the current work force is focused on delivering a working, stable version 2.x first before they even start thinking about going to work on 3.x.

One if the problems with this whole thing is that there is never any specic exciting detail as to what is happening on the plugin side, nor any interest in the feedback from the user community.
For example, we don't see:

"Next update will resolve the bug with iray materials converting from Daz to OcDS."
Or,
"Which update will be most critical for your use?"

It's all very vague, so in terms of utility the frustration remains. All conversations with T_3 following the plugin's last update, for good or for bad, never materialized into anything. Other plugins seem to have developers who are very interested in the specific technical plugin feedback from its users. We are starved for this type of relationship.

Otoy, we are not viewing this forum because we are interested in the resolution of some term of agreement between Otoy and a developer. We are interested in it because we want to do renders. We want to render with as much efficiency as we can possibly have, and have it be fun. And if something isn't working right we want to enjoy being involved in the process of development.

TRRazor wrote:Not completely sure, that I catch your meaning, but what exactly in the below quoted answer by Goldorak did you not understand?

In case it wasn't clear, we are planning to address updates related to the current version first. Work on V3 will follow that.

This clearly indicates, that the current work force is focused on delivering a working, stable version 2.x first before they even start thinking about going to work on 3.x.

That was not made clear by his first message. His first message contained only version 3.x statements.

Regardless of either timing or wording, if they are focused on delivering a working stable 2.x plugin, why even mention 3.x in the first place?
Where is the stable 2.x version, if it's a priority above everything else?

Here is my meaning, in very concise synopsis:
1. Question: Request for official statement concerning the OcDS plugin. (the original post)
2. Weeks go by.
3. Goldorak: I am working on the issue, please standby.
4. More time goes by.
5. "Now we have to wait to find out how long we have to wait."
6. Goldorak: We're working on it. This is a 3rd party developer, so it takes extra time.
7. "Can you not give us a ballpark timeframe?"
8. Goldorak: We're aware of the lack of communication, but we're about halfway through this process and expect to announce things when they're done.
9. "Ok, it's been two months now. Where do we stand?"
10. Goldorak: "There is a V3 plug-in coming. We are making necessary changes to ensure it is released in a timely manner alongside other V3 plug-ins. We expect these changes will further improve communication and updates in general along the way there.
We are hoping to finalize the remaining details in the coming weeks so that we can finally announce exactly what these changes will entail."
11: Everyone: "WHAT?? Now it's about v3??"
12: Goldorak: In case it wasn't clear, we are planning to address updates related to the current version first. Work on V3 will follow that.

The point I'm making:
On #1, when the original request for INFORMATION was made, the date was August 25, 2015.
At what point has that question actually been answered after all these months?
The only resemblance of a useful answer I have seen has been recently, when a v 3.x announcement was made.
That can only lead me to believe that either v 2.x will coincide with a v 3.x plugin, or that work on a 2.x DEPENDS ON a 3.x.
Otherwise ... Why mention 3.x at all? The question is months old and is more related to 1.x/2.x, but he decided to bring up 3.x related information.

How is he planning to "address updates"? Isn't that precisely the original question, back in August?
To me, this has been months and months of subterfuge and distracting confusion, then finally mention of v3.x. This doesn't make you angry at all?
Put into a broader perspective... If there wasn't such a heavy price tag, or invested time in this software, I would venture to say many people would have abandoned this entire thing long ago. Yet, here we are. And each very simple and easy question posted to someone of authority takes months for an answer, resulting in pages and pages of confusion and distraction. Why is it so hard to answer: WHEN CAN WE EXPECT RESULTS?

WHEN CAN WE EXPECT RESULTS?

A not so long time ago, there was a game company most famous for the quote "When it's done.
Although under completely different circumstances, I suggest you apply the same perspective to the OcDS plug-in for now.

3DRealms don't exist anymore and Duke Nukem Forever was a completely different story back then, but the developers made it clear to the community that development of the game according to community standards, would require time, patience and money.

As it was also made clear in the past by Goldorak, Otoy do acknowledge that the information policy of the past was - mildly put - not optimal.
By judging from the comments though it seems clear, that everything possible is being undertaken to get a stable 2.x version into the hands of the community asap.
Trying to push things forward by demanding "answers" and "results" is not helping anything and/or anybody, as there might even be a completely new team working on the plug-in now, than 2-3 months ago.

Forcing a software developer to work "fast" usually results in buggy releases - something we've seen in the past too often and surely don't want to see again.

So please - cut Otoy some slack, try to make the best out of the (admittedly broken) version we have for now, and then - maybe sooner than you think - we might have something on our hands we can call a stable full release.

TRRazor wrote:

WHEN CAN WE EXPECT RESULTS?

As it was also made clear in the past by Goldorak, Otoy do acknowledge that the information policy of the past was - mildly put - not optimal.
By judging from the comments though it seems clear, that everything possible is being undertaken to get a stable 2.x version into the hands of the community asap.
Trying to push things forward by demanding "answers" and "results" is not helping anything and/or anybody, as there might even be a completely new team working on the plug-in now, than 2-3 months ago.

Forcing a software developer to work "fast" usually results in buggy releases - something we've seen in the past too often and surely don't want to see again.

So please - cut Otoy some slack, try to make the best out of the (admittedly broken) version we have for now, and then - maybe sooner than you think - we might have something on our hands we can call a stable full release.

We have been cutting Otoy a whole lot of slack. You can see my join date next to this post (almost the same as yours). It has been two years. Two years, and when I joined the problems with the development were already obvious. There has been progress, but not enough to catch up with the times.

I still consider the information policy abysmal. There hasn't been an official post of Otoy that deals with the situation, only some fragments here and there as answers to user questions. The basic questions still haven't been answered.
Questions like:
1. Who the F is Goldorak? Does he speak for Otoy or is he just a random developer sharing his thoughts. He never introduced himself or what his role here is.
2. Who is working on the plugin?
3. What is going on with the development of the plugin? Why is there such a delay?
4. Why is it so hard to keep us updated on the situation?
...

Personally I think it is still just T_3 working on the plugin on his own. The only thing that has changed is that he will no longer be posting or dealing with customers. This part has been taken over by Goldorak for "customer complaints". Also there is bepeg4d that seems to be helping out on the "technical" side now, which is nice. But for the actual plugin development, I doubt anything has changed.

TRRazor wrote:

WHEN CAN WE EXPECT RESULTS?

As it was also made clear in the past by Goldorak, Otoy do acknowledge that the information policy of the past was - mildly put - not optimal.
By judging from the comments though it seems clear, that everything possible is being undertaken to get a stable 2.x version into the hands of the community asap.

What comments? Made by whom?
What was said that makes you feel everything possible is being undertaken?

TRRazor wrote: Trying to push things forward by demanding "answers" and "results" is not helping anything and/or anybody, as there might even be a completely new team working on the plug-in now, than 2-3 months ago.

Pushing things forward gives answers.
If it were not for pushing for answers in the original post in this thread, we would not have Goldorak with any type of response at all.
How do you know there is a new team working on the plug-in? Was this said at some point?
This conjecture and speculation really should stop, unless there are verifiable facts that come from either Otoy, or the 3rd party involved in the development.

TRRazor wrote: Forcing a software developer to work "fast" usually results in buggy releases - something we've seen in the past too often and surely don't want to see again.

Poser plugin: OctaneRender® for Poser (Windows) 2.24.2 [TEST] » Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:18 am
Carrara plugin: OctaneRender for Carrara 2.24.0079 [Test] » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:51 am
Blender plugin: OctaneRender™ for Blender 2.24.2 - 9.6 Win [TEST] » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:25 am
Cinema4D plugin: Version 2.24.2-TEST4.2 (13.11.2015) - Test only » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:04 pm

Daz Studio plugin: OcDS Setup v2.2 (last Beta) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:53 pm

How is it that other plug-ins are faster to update their releases?
Are you saying all those are buggy??
If they are all so buggy, I would think releasing version after version would eventually reduce or eliminate the bugs, no? After all, that is what BETA testing is designed to accomplish.
(PS. Its pretty bad when even the Carrara plugin is more up to date than Daz Studio's.)

TRRazor wrote: So please - cut Otoy some slack, try to make the best out of the (admittedly broken) version we have for now, and then - maybe sooner than you think - we might have something on our hands we can call a stable full release.

Why exactly should I cut them slack, again? What incentive do I have to cut Otoy some slack?
"Sooner than you think" came and went, 6 months ago.
In fact, it's been 3 months since the "Request for official statement concerning the OcDS plugin" has been made. At what point has the request been answered? That's really all I'm asking for: AN ANSWER.
At what point will we finally get a meaningful useful response as to the status of the BETA plugin, without subterfuge regarding future versions of unreleased software?

Know what?
Lets take it from another viewpoint....
Pretend I am brand new to this entire thing, and only have Daz Studio, and Octane (standalone).
After reading years of posts in this forum about a broken plugin, should they buy OcDS plugin when the answer is "when its ready"?
I would think not. So, if the answer to a NEW customer is "I would not recommend it", what happens to the existing customers that have already paid for it? Are we just supposed to sit idly by for years, and wonder when it will finally happen?

What comments? Made by whom?
What was said that makes you feel everything possible is being undertaken?

Goldorak has been posting his ass off, kindly - and always politely - answering every 10-15 posts over the last couple of weeks. I would say that alone represents an improvement in communication.
He mentioned more than once that they're working towards releasing the plug-in in a stable state asap, but also confirmed that they don't have as much influence on the WHEN as they would probably like to.
I'm definitely not going to go through all the other pages and search for his quotes - but they are there.

Pushing things forward gives answers.

I agree, but there is a big difference between "gently pushing" and "aggressively pushing". Otoy is more than aware that shit has gone sideways with the plug-in a long time ago and are now trying to take things back on track. This won't happen in a couple of weeks (or months, maybe), considering for how long this has been going on...
What I'm really trying to say here is: I think they finally got the message, it was very plain to read over the last 4-5 pages of this thread, don't you think?

How is it that other plug-ins are faster to update their releases?
Are you saying all those are buggy??
If they are all so buggy, I would think releasing version after version would eventually reduce or eliminate the bugs, no? After all, that is what BETA testing is designed to accomplish.
(PS. Its pretty bad when even the Carrara plugin is more up to date than Daz Studio's.)

That's an easy one to answer: All of the other plug-ins you listed above are developed by full-time developers who are making a living out of this. t_3 is not developing the plug-in full time, and probably has another dayjob from which he has to make a living.

Why exactly should I cut them slack, again? What incentive do I have to cut Otoy some slack?
"Sooner than you think" came and went, 6 months ago.
In fact, it's been 3 months since the "Request for official statement concerning the OcDS plugin" has been made. At what point has the request been answered? That's really all I'm asking for: AN ANSWER.
At what point will we finally get a meaningful useful response as to the status of the BETA plugin, without subterfuge regarding future versions of unreleased software?

The question you should ask yourself instead is: What other influential options, that will produce a working plug-in, do you really have? whining? complaining? No valid alternatives imho...

Know what?
Lets take it from another viewpoint....
Pretend I am brand new to this entire thing, and only have Daz Studio, and Octane (standalone).
After reading years of posts in this forum about a broken plugin, should they buy OcDS plugin when the answer is "when its ready"?
I would think not. So, if the answer to a NEW customer is "I would not recommend it", what happens to the existing customers that have already paid for it? Are we just supposed to sit idly by for years, and wonder when it will finally happen?

It won't be years, I guess that can be said for certain, the plug-in is in a "too advanced" state...
And you're right, in it's current state I would not recommend the plug-in to anybody.

PS: I'm definitely on your side here, man, but aside from this thread, complaining / upping the pressure hasn't really changed much over the last months, aside from a slight improvement in Otoy's communication policy and in the complete vanishing of t_3.

So let's all chill out, and give them time until the end of the year - I'm sure we'll hear something from them again then - and yes, this is again - pure speculation, since I'm not part of the Otoy team