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Re: Rhino Live announced..if only

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:36 am
by face_off
In my opinion it is embrassing how Refractive and Otoy are handling Rhino users! 6 of 10 3D Artists i know, are working with Rhino. Car Designers. hundrets of jewelry designers, ......
Do you know how many Rhino3d users there are?

Re: Rhino Live announced..if only

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:14 am
by cfrank78
Do you know how many Rhino3d users there are?
I know over 300 jewelry designers worldwide, who all work with rhino based design programs like Rhinogold or matrix or rhino itself. I don´t know how MANY jewelry designers work with rhino, but i know a few hundred. We share knowledge, share experiences and of course i talk a lot about octane! But......i don´t know ONE jewelry designer who works with 3ds max or cinema4d or blender! Would be anyway foolish, cause the nurbs are perfect for manufacturing!

And yeah i am still meaning it. I find it embrassing that Rhino users don´t get a little bit of priority, cause the industry is so huge and as a businessman i can´t understand why Otoy/Refractive does not want all these customers NOW! The time would be perfect. Rhino 5 just released, Matrix 8 is in the start holes, RhinoGold 4 is in the end of being a beta and will be released as an alpha in the next weeks! And so on. Perfect time to show how great Rhino and Octane could work together and lets a jewelry desiger do more in less time.

When i have a colleague beside me and i show him how i use octane, you know what they tell me? They tell me: Vray is integrated into Matrix. Yeah Vray is slower but it is so easy and fast to setup in Matrix. Maybe the render itself takes longer, but i did 3 renders while you did not even finish to set up the scene. Are they right or wrong? Make your own decision!

Imagine a Rhino Live plugin with the speed of the Octane renderengine. That workflow would be simply awesome! Fast, efficient, funny!

Let me tell you another story. I am/was one of 10 chosen beta testers for RhinoGold 4. We began in August 2012. TDM Solutions, the developers of RhinoGold, were looking out for a new render engine for Rhinogold 4. Brazil, the render engine they used in Rhinogold 3, was not anymore state of the art. They looked at many engines. Arion, Octane, Vray.........Finaly they made their contract with Chaosgroup and Vray. I bought myself Octane in November. I made no decision and did not give them any tips nore did i tell any opinion, cause i did not even have octane by myself at that time. I just worked in the program interface itself. That was THEIR decision. So ask yourself WHY they made this decision! Rhinogold hast many thousand users - that would have been great for Refractive Software! When i talked to one of the developers from TDM, why they did not go to octane - guess what his answer was: Octane and Rhino do not fit very well together at this moment. Lets wait for Rhinogold 5 and we will have a look again how this software works together with ours! (Copy/Paste from the Skype session)

Thats simply the truth and that are facts ond no opinion!

Chris!

Re: Rhino Live announced..if only

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:52 am
by face
I don´t know what Otoy/Refractive should have to do with a live plugin.
The most live plugins are written from users outside from Otoy/Refractive.
So if you need a live plugin for Rhino, then find a user who has the intention/skill to write a plugin.
Make it public on Rhino forums or other platforms.

I don´t like this art of posts where companies or people are defamed without a background.
Maybe it´s better to spend a little bit more time to investigate some things before writing a post...

face

Re: Rhino Live announced..if only

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:35 am
by cfrank78
I don´t know what Otoy/Refractive should have to do with a live plugin.
The most live plugins are written from users outside from Otoy/Refractive.
So if you need a live plugin for Rhino, then find a user who has the intention/skill to write a plugin.
Make it public on Rhino forums or other platforms.

I don´t like this art of posts where companies or people are defamed without a background.
Maybe it´s better to spend a little bit more time to investigate some things before writing a post...

face
I allready asked some advanced Rhino users. Ther answer was: Thats strange. Should not the developer itself write the plugins or at least find the developers? Then they ask me how refractive handels that. What about the source code and many more. I gave them the contact infos of octane and wrote: please ask themselfes, i don´t know that! Their answer was: Oh my - how complictated is that?

I also posted it in several forums if someone is interrested!

I don´t know how to program or make a script or do anything else. I wanna use the software i baught as good as possible - nothing else!

You have your opinion and i respect that. I even understand it. But please also respect mine!
So if you need a live plugin for Rhino, then find a user who has the intention/skill to write a plugin.
Sorry, but in my opinions it is not the users job to do this. This should be their job, not ours if we want a plugin/add on! When a customers comes to me and whants a 3 carat diamond ring - shall i then tell the customer: ok if you want one, go and bye one - come back and i will manufacture a nice ring with it. This is like burning my money in the oven. I would not earn on the diamond and apart from that, i think i would never see this customer again!

Regards Chris!

Re: Rhino Live announced..if only

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:56 am
by newske
Octane is (or was last time I checked) a pretty small team, and thus it's a bit much to ask for them to learn the SDK for every, or even just the major 3D software.

They also made their status quite public; they are looking for someone with knowledge of the Rhino SDK to develop the plugin with their assistance, at which point they would release their SDK (privately) to the dev.

On another note, Chris, you are using the software you bought (standalone), and the plugin will be more expensive than the standalone (I imagine) due to the extra work it requires for integration ontop of the engine.

It's not necessarily a users job to create the plugin - it is of course a paid position and any developer who is committed could take it, though of course knowledge of the publicly available Rhino SDK would be be ever so useful.

Of course releasing a Rhino plugin would be profitable for the team, so there's no reason why they wouldn't do it if it were viable in their current position. They're on it; remind them how keen you are for it but there's no need for offense.

CamN

Re: Rhino Live announced..if only

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:18 pm
by face
Yes, i understand your side.
But can´t think that nvidia (MentalRay) go through some formus to find people which have the time to integrate their renderer.
I think, if the rendere is good and as example McNeel like it, he will ask nvidia if there is a chance to get the renderer inside rhino.

The same with Autodesk. MR isn´t integrated from NVidia, but from Autodesk on different applications from different peoples.
Would NVidia make the job, each application has the same render options. But Maya has other render options as Softimage or other shaders, sometimes there are different render versions.

On the other side, if you write a renderer, you should offer it to different companies.
But Octane is short after a beta release, maybe Otoy/Refractive will wait and will perfect some things to offer a full production ready product.
You can´t offer a product which has some bugs in this business...

face

Re: Rhino Live announced..if only

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:24 pm
by cfrank78
On another note, Chris, you are using the software you bought (standalone), and the plugin will be more expensive than the standalone (I imagine) due to the extra work it requires for integration ontop of the engine.
Hi CamN!

You are completely right. I know that. I also purchased the 3ds Plugin and from my point of view its completely Ok! They have a huge load of work to develop sutch plugins, i know that - we all have that - so its completely OK to take money for it, cause they also had to invest money to develop it and good work is worth every cent. When it is ready it is a "tool", which will bring us - the users, also more, because we are able to do our work better, faster and more efficient. Thats how business works - right?

When the cinema 4D plugin is ready, i will buy that too and i am sure it will be amazing! I will love to pay every cent that it costs, cause it will be a great "TOOL", and tools cost!

They are a small team and made their point clear. Ok. I am also a small team here but my customers don´t care about that! They give me a job to do, a deadline and ask me if i am able to get the job done. If i tell them that i can do it and if i took their money, i have to do my job! It is as simple as that. If i took their money and do net get my job done - well......you know what will happen! Why shall it here be different?

I dont wanna be offensive or harsh - really. My english is bad and i dont allways find the right words but at least written words are no gestures! Google translation is my best friend! I just say how it is - wheter if some may like it or not. This is my opinion and i say what i think. Maybe others think different - thats completely ok, but this is my opinion.

Why developing things like glare/bloom and other things while others would be much more important and profitable and at least - refractive software is a business right? Give the users what they want and really need to use the software better and more efficient! Nothing else! I don´t need glare - it can also be done quick and fast in Photoshop or After Effects or Premiere and many other softwares. I need Rhino plugin and other things that (many) users complained about and still, after years, have not found their way into octane and can NOT be done in other softwares or at least very complicated! But that was allready discussed in other threads!

From my point of view a customer who is direct, honest and tells what could bring the software forward is a 100 times better than others they just say: What a crap and never come back. But as all i said above - this is just MY opinion!

Kind regards Chris!

Re: Rhino Live announced..if only

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:32 pm
by cfrank78
But Octane is short after a beta release, maybe Otoy/Refractive will wait and will perfect some things to offer a full production ready product.
Thats what i hope for! And also thatwhy i tell what i think to them.


What i found "embrassing" was, that the rhino section here seemed to be a "dry dessert". From my point of view and some others, it looked like that no one from them was interrested in teh Rhino user group. So we Rhino users had often the feeling to be "not so important" than for example Autodesk or Blender or Poser users. There were no commends, no statements - nothing, in the Rhino section - or to be fair......VERY, very little!

This is the first thread where somebody wrote: WE ARE ON IT. This gives me hope! Really!

But a bit too late maybe. I just wanted to make clear that maybe they missed the ideal point, to bring that plugin to the market. If someone felt attacked i am sorry, that was not my intention - but it is like it is!

Kind regards Chris!

Re: Rhino Live announced..if only

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:39 pm
by Refracty
I have contacted McNeel and Refractive Software because of the live plugin years ago.
McNeel (BCN) was very open and offered support but the approach had to come from RS/Otoy to develop this.
I think it might just be that the right developer is still missing.
So to support the search Otoy should make a dedicated post / threat on the forum that they look for a Rhino developer.
They have done it for Cinema and Blender in the past.
Then we could post this on other Rhino forums and link it to the forum here.

Re: Rhino Live announced..if only

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:34 pm
by face
Things like this?
http://render.otoy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=25082
FOR USERS

If you are an OctaneRender user and would like to see a tightly integrated, viewport fitted OctaneRender plugin product for your favorite 3D application, feel free to link or
reproduce this announcement on community boards where software developers who could be interested in the plugin program frequent.
face