i need some answers

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i need some answers

Postby crackfox » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:57 pm

crackfox Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:57 pm
i will try and keep this civil, tbh i am pissed off beyond belief.

this was written by goldorak in november:

"We did V3.08, V4 and V5 in 12 months, and V6 with RTX is halfway done and early next year. So if you want those kind of updates every year multiply 3 x 75 and you have more cost than $179 year which is what it is on the shop page today. Also, V4 was free and still is, so amortize the upgrades from that perspective. "

that was in defense of subscription system. funny how it turned out. an absolute joke.

this would suggest that V6(2019.1) was due to come out early 2019, yet here we are in august and still in the RC phase with massive red disclaimers not to use the version in production phase. so basically we are to be beta testers as we were for years now. so no thanks i have work to actuall finish.
earlier i would actually install these rc vesions but the warnings and posts i read, i cant mess a working setup in a middle of a couple of projects.
i bought into the subscription on the basis of these promises and the video showcases - which i understand now were more "aspirational" then realistic (read: total BS, features to be trickled out in a very untimely fashion. 2019.2 with rtx is only in alpha, its absurd.)

what is kind of illustrative of the fkup your dev process is the fact that the version nomenclature suggests a point release (2019.1, 2019.2...) yet we are nearly four months away from the years end and still there is no viable 2019 release. you precisely changed v4,5,6 to go with the sub process and just managed to show that you simply cannot swing it.

my questions are:
1. how do you miss a release plan by that wide of a margin? there has to be a plan right? not just throwing darts on a calender?
2. what are the news for the permanent licenses?
as it stands i paid 399 for absolutely jack sh!t. you´ve delivered on nothing and time keeps going on my sub.
for this reason i either want a full refund or for the sum to be put towards the permanent version. permanent would by a preference since i need to have some project finished before i ditch the renderer for good.
3. what are your thoughts on subscription now? its quite obvious you cannot deliver things in time. in this arrangement, ofcourse you needn´t rush things since people are paying anyway right? you can parse announced features into as many point releases, push back anime kernel and rtx for example, yet leave the video advertising and roadmap in. it looks cynical and disingenuous.
this ma not be the truth but is exactly the impression i am getting and what makes me so mad.

i think you guys are wizards, the software is capable of incredible stuff. i dont dispute that. i just cant figure out wtf you are doing on other fronts.
when i say i will deliver on certain date - i never miss it. its vital for the industry and a personal point of pride. keep your fking promises.

i am a very polite sort of idiot, but you deserve no courtesy whatsoever. you set me back for months and i really cant deal with this permanent waiting for godot crap
i waited for months for the volumetric improvements and the ai upsampling in order to finish up a sequence that takes 45+min per frame right now.
this is simply untenable and now i have to port my projects to e-cycles.
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Re: i need some answers

Postby Lewis » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:32 pm

Lewis Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:32 pm

I'm kinda in similar boat like you.
I bought 3 licenses of All-Access subscription at November 2018 and I never used 2018 or 2019.x octane for any project so far (2018 was beta until recently and as you say 2019 is alpha) so i ended up using 4.x for all my projects since November last year so basically i spend 537 USD (there was black Friday discount) + TAX for something i can only start using as of recently (v2018 not v2019 which is still heavy alpha).

So most of that subscription turned out to be for v4 (that was stable production ready build while 2018 was in beta/rc for long time this year).
So i proposed even back then to give us Permanent license option and not force users to subscription only mode (that's not even subscription that's pure rental since software stops working after you stop paying).
sadly i got only 36 votes for that Feature request (that FR system is buried on OTOY WEB that most of people don't even know it's there)
https://render.otoy.com/requests/?qa=43 ... w=436#q436

Also back then in November 2018 there was no Octane 2018 plugins for DCC apps until January 2019 so I'd say subscription shouldn't be counted/star until 2018 octane was ready at least in RC phase since they advise NOT to use Bet ain production and yet subscription time expires anyway, totally unfair to users :(.

So for me there should be 4 license options:

1. Subscription/Rent only (like now All-Access)
2. Perpetual for single DCC app (i don't need 20 plugins i need only 1 or tops 2 in my pipeline and I'm glad to pay plugins separately when i need them just like up to v4)
3. Rent to Own (similar like maintenance, you pay for 12 months in advance but you get to keep permanently last version released up to that time (just like some other software companies offer that option)
4. free tier or how they call that 1 GPU mode/version (I'm not interested in that 'coz i believe DEVs need to get their hard earned cash/checks but they obviously want to have free version so I'm fine with that (with some 1GPU limit or so) but don't make "free" version on expense of your loyal customers forcing them in rental only ;))

So Please Otoy give us at least "Rent to Own" if not regular perpetual license for single plugin/Dcc app.

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Re: i need some answers

Postby pegot » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:07 am

pegot Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:07 am
+1 on Rent to Own.

Unless there is rent to own this subscription model is not really working out for me either. I need only the Blender plugin. But a major incentive for me to come on board was the promise that a working updated After Effects plugin would also be made available. Well that hasn’t happened yet (Otoy now says a current After Effects Plugin is coming AFTER 2019 is released). So basically, by that time it will be another year and therefore I did NOT get the products / functionality I was promised.
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Re: i need some answers

Postby Grumly » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:54 pm

Grumly Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:54 pm
I understand totally the subscription license, I have the same for my Adobe software... but you (OTOY) can not give us a roadmap here, that are so much inaccurate and not explain us a bit.

The subscription license appeared one year ago... in only one year you are already 8 months late...

Your communication is clearly not serious and looked more than a fraudulent ad, than a real roadmap... understand that, you ask money in regard of this roadmap... so it's suppose to be a contract.

I love Octane and you have change my way of using 3D... but if you advertise a new license with a roadmap... you have to STRICTLY follow this roadmap. We are not crowdfounders, who give you money and dream of a product... we are paying customers.

So if you are able to have a clear and REAL roadmap... OK, you can continue your subscription license and I'm okay to pay for it... but if not... well... if you can not do your part of the contract, dont ask us to follow our part too and keep a normal license fee.
If for example you had asked 150$ to upgrade from v4 to 2018... you may have asked that in septembre 2018... but really proposed us that only in jully 2019 because it was not really ready with the plugin before... make us pay for finished products, not dreamed products.

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Re: i need some answers

Postby rajib » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:35 pm

rajib Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:35 pm
I agree. Too much has been promised and not delivered. And 2019.1 was supposed to come in Q1. Now it is Q3 and still no production release. I am a developer myself. We are in no way allowed to miss deadlines with this kind of margins. Not even by a month. I will not have a job if I told my customer I will deliver in Q1 and still have not delivered in Q3 and am asking them to continue to pay me for products not delivered. I hope as a gesture of goodwill Otoy extends everyone's subscription period. Please don't count 2018.1.1 , 2018.1.2 and 2018.1.3 as 3 releases you have given us. It is only one product release plus bug fix. So actually speaking I am paying a lot more to go from V4 to 2018 than I paid for going from V2 to V3. V4 may have been called free. But I have already paid more for it by buying the subscription plan and not getting the promised releases in a timely fashion. So to me it was not 'free'.

And please listen to your customers and change your subscription model to rent to own. Once we cancel the subscription, we can be left on the release we last updated to while paying for the subscription. We only get bug fixes but no more upgrades. There are simply too many material changes that are not backward compatible to open the scenes and use them with V4. So going back to V4 does not make sense and well we have already paid for whatever version we were using so we should not be asked to go back to V4. You can say you have to be on a subscription plan for a minimum 3 months before you can cancel and own the license, well that would be okay.
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Re: i need some answers

Postby promity » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:07 pm

promity Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:07 pm
I would like more clarity regarding the timing when it will be possible to acquire a perpetual license. I would also like clarification on whether it is will possible to switch from a subscription license to a perpetual license?
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Re: i need some answers

Postby crackfox » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:53 pm

crackfox Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:53 pm
hey guys,

thank you all for chiming in. to be honest, i kept rethinking this, wondering if i am being unfair with my expectations.
i am also surprised there is not a more of an outrage regarding the developent on the whole.

to be honest, as soon as i wrote the post i deleted it. i thought it was pissy of me. i really dont want to be the toxic guy.
not sure what happened but the post is here and i appreciate the replies.

yes, we need the clarity regarding the perpetual system but after talking to the support, i get the feeling its a very long way away. the rep was not even willing to comment on anything regarding that. mind you there were very transparent on other matters and acknowledge the massive delay.
apparently the unbiased nature of the engine is at fault. that that for what it is.

@grumly - this is exactly it. the roadmap videos are infact an advertisement and a direct promise. as it stands it might be all vapourware. the fact that some features are parsed and shifted to 2019.2 and beyond is a joke.
@lewis - i also shelled out and keep using the older versions for stability reasons. did not know there is a FR tbh, not surprised its buried out there though.

@pegot - im in a similar situation. i actually am exclusively interested in blender version which is way away. they are still working on free tier and once its done (quote:"there's a lot to fix and it's not feature complete.") they will move forward. going by this tempo, this could be sometime 2020 at the most optimistic. jesus fking christ.

the test c4d versions come with disclaimers and me, having sh!t to actually finish, not beta testing, am not touching them. i am actually fed up being a beta tester for this company.

the subscription system was supposed to bring more resources to development. that was infact used as a selling argument.
you all know what we got and i truly cant fathom how can one be this incompetent as a company.

i now firmly believe this company has 0 capabilities of pulling of SaaS. very few companies actually do. software as service is actually heavily pushed by the game industry and it is ruining franchises and the industry itself. look at battlefield, anthem, destiny, sea of thieves, apex legends...
the studios just cannot swing it. the system is not in place for the benefit of the consumer but for the ability to milk their customers into perpetuity. its just some cyncal sh!t and otoy really showed their true colours as far as i am concerned.
epic games did gangbusters with fortnite because of the massive experience they have with unreal engine. even so the devs are under constant stress and overworked.

permanent license should actually be embraced as an out for otoy. i actually do believe that the youtube roadmap 2019 and the lack of a functional version does have a whiff of illegality considering we are paying for time ie. services not rendered.

not sure where the responsibilities lie. safe bet is the upper management as per usual, but does not change the fact that this company is a fk up of epic proportions.
@rajib hit the nail on the head. in the first quarter of the subscription, they are 3Q behind. i mean that says it all doesnt it. cant even wrap my head around it. if i missed the mark by that margin i would probably rethink my career and cap in hand beg my costumers for understanding.
what we get is vagueness and no end to this fiasco.

every single interaction i have had with otoy employees and support was nothing short of perfection. always curteous, helpful and competent. but looking at the dev process at this point is a surrealist comedy routine or something.

make it good otoy. fking give us the permanent license/rent to own.

tbh does not change the fact that i will be relying on e-cycles far more than octane. i have been using it exclusively and the only single issue is ram limit which i can optimize towards.
i dont want to tie my livelihood with to this product. havent used octane for months now but i would like to finish up a few project, and i guess its adios.
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Re: i need some answers

Postby promity » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:07 pm

promity Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:07 pm
Yes, it has been repeatedly said that Otoy is looking for ways to milk customers endlessly. But they are not alone in this - this is a global trend. Everyone is obsessed with income, everyone invents new and new ways to increase income without improving the quality of the proposal. Moneylenders drive everyone to increase profits, to infinite revenue growth. But in this game with moneylenders, as a result, income growth can only be with them. So more loans - more dependence on moneylenders.
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Re: i need some answers

Postby crackfox » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:40 pm

crackfox Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:40 pm
hi promity,

i get where you are coming from, but this is not necessarily anything new. the imperative of making more money has always been there.
what is new, is actively trying to provide less for the money but keep milking the costumer in perpetuity.

i begrudgingly am using adobe cloud. dont like it but the value proposition is still there. they are maintaining growth with stock images and other crap.

i just cant get over the fact that someone decided to do a hardswitch towarss the rental system while completely lacking the abilities to provide their contractual obligations and promises.
they are backed by venture capitalists which may account for some stuff but not willing to blame the evil capitalists at this moment.
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Re: i need some answers

Postby itsallgoode9 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:23 pm

itsallgoode9 Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:23 pm
crackfox wrote:hey guys,

tbh does not change the fact that i will be relying on e-cycles far more than octane. i have been using it exclusively and the only single issue is ram limit which i can optimize towards.
i dont want to tie my livelihood with to this product. havent used octane for months now but i would like to finish up a few project, and i guess its adios.

Yep, same here. I'm switching off of Octane as soon as possible--probably going to begrudgingly switch over to Redshift.

I've been through this cycle before with Maxwell Render. The company was amazing when it was new guy on the block but as time went on, as they grew, it turned into broken promise after broken promise and missed deadline after missed deadline. What was once an amazing, cutting edge program, eventually turned into obsolete render program that barely anybody uses anymore, purely due to the shitty company. I see this exact same thing with OTOY right now/over the past two years.
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