Best way to save output - questions

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Re: Best way to save output - questions

Postby Labrats » Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:46 pm

Labrats Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:46 pm
I worked with "hollywood graded vfx houses" or what are they called these days, and they all have different workflows depending on what they are going for.

Software: Almost all of them had After effects/Nuke/Flame or even Smoke (discontinued these days) for compositing/motion graphics. Also all of them had custom made software for their pipelines. Note: While after effects is not ideal for a linear workflow, it's been used a lot for motion graphics AND for compositing in a professional workflow. But so is Nuke, Flame and Fusion.

File formats: Sometimes they used TIFF, other times they used EXR. It was, again, really dependable on what they needed it for. If they're doing a Marvel or other big budget movie, they keep the highest possible quality along the whole process. They then most likely work with what's called a scene-referred workflow, using Open EXR. For some smaller productions, with a smaller team they sometimes use log DPX. A small note: If you need speed in After effects, apparantly the fastest format is DPX. But Octane doesn't support it (yet).

That being said, for (big or small) commercials for example, I worked on projects that had to be done in a short amount of time, in After effects, using TIFF or even Png. While this is not a common file format for high-end vfx pipeline, it's not 'banished' or impossible to work with at all ;).

Either way, if one individual is working for the new Deadpool movie, they most likely end up being making massive amount of rock textures for months, or modelling part of a suit for Wolverine 8-) (cause they have a giant team and a person for every small job) so they don't have to worry too much about the pipeline or end file format for that matter anyway.

BUT if you're doing work in your own company, it's all about finding your own best worflow and making it look great. I can guarantee you that 95% of the work that freelancers or small teams do for corporate's that are not vfx /production houses, the client only cares about how good it looks. I never ever had any corporate CEO say: "I really like your animation, but you used PNG in your workflow. I can't stand PNG! Please do it again, but this time use EXR". Only if you're involved with other production houses, or have to work together with other pipelines, then I would say, Use a linear workflow with OpenEXR as a start, or speak with them and together set-up a pipeline that works best for the both of you. If they like to work in PNG, then so be it. I can guarantee you will not explode, nor will you ever break into pieces and be transported to another multiverse cause you used the 'wrong format'.

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Re: Best way to save output - questions

Postby elsksa » Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:50 pm

elsksa Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:50 pm
Labrats wrote:(...) A small note: If you need speed in After effects, apparantly the fastest format is DPX. But Octane doesn't support it (yet).

The renderer doesn't have to support all formats.
It is analogous to digital still or motion-picture cameras where one 'master' encoding format can be used for post-transcoding. This is the way and has been for years.
As you most likely know, there are usually is 2 to 3 supported file formats. Typically:
- one master (e.g. proprietary raw or EXR for CGI),
- a "high quality" lighter one (e.g. ProRes and its associated varying options)
- a "cheap" one for direct usage/preview (e.g. JPG for DSC or H.264 MP4/equivalent as seen in mirrorless models)

Labrats wrote:That being said, for (big or small) commercials for example, I worked on projects that had to be done in a short amount of time, in After effects, using TIFF or even Png. While this is not a common file format for high-end vfx pipeline, it's not 'banished' or impossible to work with at all ;).

There are undeniably cases where it is impossible to work with.
If it wasn't "banished", it was, once again, due to unawareness.

Labrats wrote: (...) BUT if you're doing work in your own company, it's all about finding your own best worflow and making it look great. I can guarantee you that 95% of the work that freelancers or small teams do for corporate's that are not vfx /production houses, the client only cares about how good it looks.

That's one helluva exemplary and common wrong thinking. Not the first nor the last. Obviously, an amateur or "semi-pro" working with considerably small-scale clients, as seen in photography or graphic design, for 2 to 3 (low) figures top, but that's not representative of this user-base, nor viable as a freelancer.

Labrats wrote:I never ever had any corporate CEO say: "I really like your animation, but you used PNG in your workflow. I can't stand PNG! Please do it again, but this time use EXR".

A CEO is *often* not the CTO/TD. Ask those people instead, or at least, the right ones. History have proven than even some of them, software developers/engineers, TDs and whatnot, are uninformed of fundamental technical concepts. Ever heard of the infamous Adobe case? It's not the only one.

Labrats wrote:(...) If they like to work in PNG, then so be it.

Nope, period. Never, e-ver outside "web-design/dev".
That's not even debatable. The proven arguments and technical proof are at everyone disposal. Anyone finding a [fallacious] reason would fall into plain hallucination.
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Re: Best way to save output - questions

Postby KeeWe » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:37 am

KeeWe Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:37 am
There are undeniably cases where it is impossible to work with.


And yet I still haven't encountered such a case. Do you have any example?
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Re: Best way to save output - questions

Postby Labrats » Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:13 pm

Labrats Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:13 pm
@KeeWe Don't worry too much about it. Png is fine. It has it's flaws, true, but every format does. And for high-end productions, use EXR. In Elsksa's defense: It's just his opinion, and he is entitled to it. ;)

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Re: Best way to save output - questions

Postby frankmci » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:13 pm

frankmci Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:13 pm
KeeWe wrote:Hi guys,
Since we are starting a new project, I'd like to optimize our file workflow a bit. We usually work in 16 bit png with compositing done in AE.
Frankly, we didn't have any noticeable problems over the last years so I was a little confused reading this blogpost about how big of a no go .png is


In my opinion, this is bullshit, as long as you know what it is you need out of PNG and its limitations. Sure, it won't work well with certain kinds of data, but if you just need 16 bit RGBA, it's perfectly fine. It also has its own advantages, such as nearly universal readability. Similarly, that post's comments on JPG depend on usage. Sure, at lower compression rates, JPG is perfectly fine for many applications, providing decent image quality and reasonable compression. Increase the compression too much, and the image quality quickly degrades. Back in the 90s, we had no choice but to render to JPG for big jobs, simply because storage was so expensive and slow. But using low compression JPG as an intermediate format was still perfectly good for broadcast TV, as long as it only went through one, maybe two more trans-coding/compression cycles before hitting tape.

Yes, EXR is a nice format, and it has a much wider set of capabilities than others, but don't listen to the snobs; you don't have to use it to be "professional." PNG is not crap. Whatever you choose, what matters is, "Does it work for you? Are your clients happy? Do you meet your deadlines and budgets?" If yes, that's what makes you professional.
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Re: Best way to save output - questions

Postby Jengo_1 » Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:08 am

Jengo_1 Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:08 am
Omg I love this, this is the most interesting this forum has been since I joined hah

I'm just MJ eating popcorn here, but I would say this from my experience working with clients -
A non-destructive workflow ALWAYS ends up saving me more time than not. That's why I always render out EXRs with the largest amount of AOVs necessary for the job and just deal with the larger data-space and slightly slower preview times on AE.
Somehow, the client always ends up wanting to change some color, change some lighting, mask something out, blah blah. PNGs just don't hold enough information in them to do these changes in post well.
Re-rendering a project is always much more expensive and time consuming than working with EXRs. That's my 2 cents anyway. Carry on.
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